Response to Reader
Upon the suggestion of a reader, I have posted my answer to another reader, Jennifer, who asked the following question regarding my last post:
“Okay, when you mention the pastors wife asking the girl “what she is going to do” Do you mean that you are against college or working till she meets a husband?”
Jennifer,
Thank you so much for your comment/question. It is a very common one, but a difficult answer awaits.
In essence (there’s no use beating around the bush!), yes I am against young women leaving the home, whether to go to college or pursue an “outside” career. I AM NOT, however, against a young woman pursing an education, or a means of making money. But there is a huge difference in the way we go about it. It is a slippery slope (a VERY slippery slope). If we embrace the biblical truth that women are to be full-time help-meets to their husbands (which is indeed a FULL time job), isn’t it silly to “program” their thinking in a different direction, only to suddenly switch gears again when they get married?
Am I against higher education–absolutely NOT! But when a young girl leaves her home and the protection of her father (unheard of in Bible times), and pursues a college education, where she will be inundated with feministic ideas(secular or Christian college), spends all of her time, money, thoughts, etc. pursuing this career, it is unlikely that when she gets married she will suddenly drop all of that investment and “new thinking” and be content with her role as home-maker. And even if she does, boy has she lost a lot of training opportunities! (No wonder there are so many wives that don’t even know how to cook a decent meal)…homemaking is an ART. One that must be treated seriously, cultivated, and refined. It takes time, energy and effort. Until we take the role of homemaker seriously, we will continue to undermine its need for preparation.
HOWEVER, a young woman, until she is married, CAN pursue a world of knowledge through alternate forms of higher education (a much better education than a stale college classroom can offer), remain under the protection of her father, train daily for her role someday as helpmeet (there is a lot of training if it is done right–one of which is being a helpmeet to her Dad), and she may very well pursue means of bringing in income. I know many, many young women who are flourishing in their gifts, and making great money at it while they are “in waiting”. We have leaned on the college degree(another lie we’ve been told) as the ONLY key to making money, or being successful, or preserving us in a tragedy. What a lie! There are so many other avenues of industry and provision, (which is one of the points I was making in my post), that we have virtually forgotten because we’re too busy pursing what someone said we needed to make it in the world.
This may come as a shocker and stir up a whole new debate, but I pray my sons seek an alternate route to college. There are so many superior ways of getting an education (and cheaper too!) and making a living!We are so bent to the culture’s ideas of what women are “supposed” to do, that we can’t even think outside that box. This issue has many questions and discussions which I don’t have time to even touch in this response. I will suggest an EXCELLENT resource for answering such questions as “what if a woman’s husband dies, and the wife never got a college degree to support herself?”, and other such hypotethical unlikelys.
The book “So Much More” written by two (highly intelligent) young women (age 15 and 17) is one of the most well-written arguments and thorough explanations of this topic that I’ve ever read. I highly recommend the book.
The bottom line is, if you want an apple tree to bear apples, you have to plant apple seeds. We can’t exercise the world’s methods right up until our daughters marry, then expect them to suddenly change courses and become the godly wife, mother and helpmeet we never trained them to be.
This is a sticky issue…and it’s one that is so hard to wrap our brains around because of our own brainwashing. I know, I was blown away when I first heard the suggestion that girls should not be encouraged to go to college. But just like so many issues, when there’s a slippery slope, we can’t step on and jump off mid-slide.
We have to trace our current problems (women leaving the home in droves with no desire to be there), back to the source of the problem (our sending our daughters off into a feminist culture to be stripped of all the godly training we have instilled) and do something drastic about it. That’s my short 
, yes, short answer.
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Tags: college
college | Word Warrior | 
June 22, 2007 2:26 pm
Hmmm… found your blog from HAH board. DOn;t necessarily want to disagree, and I haven’t read everything.
But what about women who do not marry? I have a beautiful, sumissive, living at home SIl in her 30′s. She has never had the opportunity to marry. SHe has been to college for her nursing degree. (something you must have a degree for)I don’t think her degree has made her at all less likely to embrace the role of wife and mother if the opportunity would come.
And what about childless women. I mean unwillingly childless. I went to college for a degree in physical therapy. I graduated w/ no marital prospects. But was blessed with a wonderful husband a yr later. I work part time and planned to quit work and stay home as soon as our first baby arrived. Well after 9 yrs of trying to become pregnant and failing trying to adopt and failing our 1st baby is now on the way.
College didn’t make me less submissive or more career oriented. But has allowed me to serve others w/ great needs, with great skill as well. And though I can’t wait to take on the career of full time mom, I am glad I have been abe to serve others through my PT “career” in my forced waiting time.
Guess I think how a girl will view and use her college education has more to do with her training and background than the actual attending college.
Just some thoughts
GOd Bless
Kelly,
I disagree. My college education has made me a BETTER wife and mother. College was one of the best experiences of my life. My future-husband & I served Christ together on the college campus doing evangelistic work, discipling other students, holding fellowships and prayer-times.
The so-called “feminist” agenda and ideas did not bother me one bit. In fact, since I had a solid foundation in the Word of God, I was able to see through the lies and was given ample opportunity to defend the faith.
My academic education has served me well in many contexts of motherhood and my husband is proud to have a college-educated wife. There is more to being a helpmeet than cooking meals and doing laundry.
The best thing my parents ever did was trust me enough to allow me to go to college. While college may not be for everyone, it was certainly the best choice for me.
And guess what? I’m still a Christian who loves the Lord and is raising my children to love Him, too!
If one your children excels in academics, please reconsider allowing them to go to college. It may just be the best thing for them!
Elizabeth
Anon,
In my original post on this subject, I emphasized that I couldn’t cover all the questions that I knew would come up, which is why I suggested the book that so beautifully answers them. And there ARE answers for all those rare scenarios you mentioned, plus a few more. (One of the greatest and most neglected opportunities for ministry awaits the single/childless woman who is devoted to serving the Lord.) The book is “So Much More”–a must-read!
And, generally speaking, most of us have daughters that will grow up to marry and have children. So preparing for the “what ifs” isn’t what we should be doing. Obedience to the Lord’s design comes with providential protection and guidance from Him in those rare circumstances.
To answer about the “woman who is willingly childless”, well, you’ll have to read my other posts on this blog to see how I feel about that!
In addition, I would say that your firm desire to stay at home after marriage, despite your college degree and career is a rare stance. I also have a college degree. I was raised in a godly home where my mother was a full-time homemaker. I had every reason to embrace God’s design for me as a homemaker, except for one problem: a godly home is rather powerless when a child is not there, but is instead being inundated eight hours a day with worldly philosophies from kindergarten through college! The day I walked off with my college diploma, I was screaming “I AM WOMAN, HEAR ME ROAR”.
I’ve changed a bit since then
I guess I might say that sending our daughters off into an agressively feministic culture may NOT destroy their foundations completely, but for me, it sure isn’t worth the risk when there are so many other wonderful alternatives!
Besides that, I strongly believe a young woman is to be under the protection of her father until marriage, which is not the case for most young women who leave home to pursue a college degree.
Again, comlicated subject, that has to be dissected, pondered, and analyzed. That’s all I ask!
Elizabeth,
I addressed some of your points in my response to Anon., mainly, that your experience is a rare one. Raw statistics show that most people who enter college professing Christianity (and come from godly homes), are at best “confused” when they leave, and many forsake their faith altogether. And still others leave with their faith intact, but little else.
The most important point I wanted to stress, in response to your comment “my husband is proud to have a college-educated wife. There is more to being a helpmeet than cooking meals and doing laundry.” With that comment, you make the assumption than the ONLY way to be truly educated is through a college degree. I could not disagree with that notion more! I think college is a terrible way to get an education, compared to so many other safer, less expensive, more convenient means. To limit ourselves to that option is a tragedy.
I would never advocate that a homemaker should not be educated. I just don’t believe college is the best way to attain that. If you did a little research into the propaganda that keeps those dollars pouring into universities, I think you may agree.
I don’t think Elizabeth is in the minority. Just about every woman I know who has children stays home with them. Including me. There is one exception and that womans husband has cancer, her husbands job has NO health insurance for a few more months. So if it werent for her job, I dont know what they would be doing aside of asking parents to loan them money.
When it came to feminist ideas at school, or ANY idea opposed to Christ, I was able to use the Bible to speak with these people. None of their ideas rubbed off on me. But you know what did? My mom staying home with us. She showed us by example. I enjoyed having my mom with me. I didnt need to stay home and bake or do household duties instead of going to college. Since my mom taught me with everyday chores after school and on the weekends it wasn’t a problem for me to have my own family. Now do my pies taste exactly like moms? No, but I can bake homemade bread fresh every week. She doesn’t do that.
Because of college I made friends with those who otherwise may have been friendless. Some are still not christians, but I have an open line of communication with them. And they know about my stand with Christ. Its me they run to when help is needed. You know what the answer to ALL their problems is? Christ Jesus!
So in other words, I am not saying that you shouldnt shelter your children.You should when they are young. But when they are of age (18 or so) they should have learned what they need to know from you by now. They need to learn to speak about Christ to others, even college kids need to hear about the truth of the Gospel.
Oh and the book you suggested, there is a big debate going on about that same one online. I know you are a supporter of Doug Phillips so it may not be what you want to hear, but there are many valid points from young girls who were in this same situation we are speaking of. This is not my blog tho. So I dont think I should be posting such info.
Where else do you get a good education for a job without college? How would someone become an engineer, ob/gyn, or a journalist for example without college? You may find some aprentiships somewhere. They are few and far between I may add. But just try and get a job to raise a family when you dont have a degree. I would say it would be the exception to the rule to NOT have one.
I enjoyed this blog. However there is nothing in the Bible that says that women cannot get a degree or keep on learning. Saying things like that starts to get on dangerous ground. Now if it is only your OPINION and what you PREFER that is just fine. But I know that the “so much more” book has come under scrutiny because they are saying that staying at home is the “only BIBLICAL thing to do”. In other words if you go to college you are SINNING against God. Totally wrong.
I forgot to add, my husband would prefer me to work if I didnt have children. I am his helpmeet. My bringing in a REAL income is one way I am able to HELP him. There may be ways to earn money at home, I am no expert on that. But because I have a degree, I can get a job almost anywhere. No matter the circumstances.
Jennifer,
There were several points I wanted to make in response to your latest comments. But I want to preface my responses by trying to articulate what I think is a major hindrance to the way we view these touchy issues.
Satan is a master of lies…when I mentioned that this (career, college and women in the work force) is a slippery slope, we have to remember that any tactic Satan wants to use to tear the family apart will be used SUBTLY, so that we don’t realize the harm in it until it’s too late.
Such, I believe, is the case with this topic. With that said, these were the points I had:
1. You mentioned that there is nothing in the Bible that says a woman cannot go to college or further her education. And I will attempt, one more time, to stress what I have said over and over…I AM IN NO WAY OPPOSED TO A WOMAN FURTHERING HER EDUCATION! But it is a lie to believe that college is the only means by which to do that. The Bible also doesn’t say that your husband shouldn’t go to topless bars, but we deduct from the whole of Scripture that He shouldn’t.
And you question how a woman is supposed to get a decent job without college…here again, the issue is not figuring out how a woman is to get a decent job. If we embrace the belief that God designed a woman to be the guard, caretaker, helpmeet and manager of her home, then we shouldn’t be preoccupied with figuring out how to get her a decent job. She already has one. Believing that there is an answer for every woman who needs income, (family, church, home business, etc.), our efforts will be better used to help her prepare for her “real” job, and not how to take on the double curse.
You also mentioned that your husband would prefer you to work outside the home if you did not have children. That this was the way in which you are his helpmeet. Do you realize that you would be someone else’s helpmeet for the 8 or so hours away from home? Do you know the statistics for extra-marital affairs since women have entered the workforce? And why not? A man leaves his home to spend all day with another woman who answers and fulfills all his needs. A woman leaves her home to spend all day with a man who compliments her intelligence and efficiency all day. Is it not the exception that these two remain faithful to their spouses?
A woman who has not been given children could be such a gem in the kingdom of God, just like a godly grandmother, or single, young woman. There are so many needs around them, so many opportunities for the powerful ministry of hospitatlity…there would be little need for so much government intrusion if the women of God would embrace their callings!
I know there are very rare circumstances when a woman may be forced to earn extra income from outside the home, but it should be a temporary situation..the exception, not the rule. Also, a quote from Dr. Laura Schlessinger comes to mind, and I don’t remember her exact words, but it was something like: “Fifty years ago, a man would fall on his sword before he would let his wife go out and slay dragons. Where have all the men gone?”
The feminist movement has so infiltrated our thinking (even though you may not believe you have any feministic tendencies), that we defend the very thing that has repeatedly weakened the family. We throw our hands up at the enormously high divorce rate in the church, at our teens who are growing up to be rebels, and all the other atrocities in the church, but we refuse to acknowledge the source of this chaos.
When did the family really begin to break apart within the church? When women left home, and we said it was OK.
The fact that the book So Much More is under scutiny is no surprise to me. If the church’s thinking is infiltrated by feminism, of course it will lash out against something that seeks to expose it. To me, it’s just proof of how wrongly entrenched our thinking is. Remember, Jesus was reviled by the spiritual leaders for speaking truth at every turn. Should we expect anything different?
Differences or not, I do SO appreciate your comments and willingness to question things and speak your opinions. My desire is just to challenge your thoughts. I don’t mind debating with someone who has a different opinion than I, as long as she has given thought to it, and can back it up with analytical conclusions.
And, it’s not just the debate either. I am not a hostile woman who wants to tear people down. I have a heart broken for the devastation of families. This is part of my ministry. I am speaking what I believe to be truth and hope for the reclaiming of families.
Firmly Gentle,
Kelly
I had just been thinking last week that if I had time, I would start two more blogs….one about the importance of women in the home, and the other about homeschooling. Seems we’re gettin’ it all covered anyway!
Kelly:
In the same way that a college education isn’t the ONLY means by which to receive an education, a woman staying home isn’t the ONLY way to please God.
Certainly college isn’t for everyone, but YOU would tragically limit your children if God was calling one of your daughter’s to be an OB/GYN and you denied them because of your own fears.
Jennifer makes an excellent point in that there are certain professions which REQUIRE a solid college education. Period. No “alternative” form of education will do.
How sad for your sons (who must one day be breadwinners) if you deny them this opportunity!
And just because a daughter goes off to college does not mean she is no longer under her father’s protection! If you’ve raised them “in the way in which they should go”—then why are you afraid of a little confusion?
Everyone experiences confusion and a trial of their faith. This is what tests our faith and makes us stronger. It’s not something to be afraid of!
I understand your concern for the state of families, but in your eagerness to salvage this holy institution, you overstep yourself.
Only God is able to save and protect. Daniel was safe in the lions’ den, a woman of 18 is safe on a college campus!
Points taken and will consider.
NO when I was working BECAUSE my husband thought it best, I was in submission to HIM. I believe that you obey the rules of this country don’t you? If so, you obey the police officer dont you? You do what he, or the lawgivers say, so in that case, you are saying that you yourself are the policemen or policy makers helpmeet? That just doesnt hold water. Oh and on the contrary, my boss’s name is/was Sue. So I wasnt submitting to another man. And if you want to look past her title to the next it was “Pastor Dave”. Pastor Dave was put there by God.
Point #2. No the bible doesnt say that my dh can go to strip clubs. But neither does it say you should preach Gods word by using the internet. Doesnt mean it isn’t a valid thing to do. Using an arguement like this is called a strawman arguement. You will have to post scripture and verse on where it is wrong for someone unmarried to continue on learning.
Point #3 You mentioned in your article the daughter being the husbands helpmeet. Go back to Genesis (or ANYWHERE else in the Bible). Where is anyone else named as Adams helpmeet aside of Eve?
Point #4 I must admit I have NEVER met anyone who after grade 12 just sat at home, or looked around to help someone. I think that would be great, but honestly I have never seen anyone do this. Is it wrong just because I havent seen it? Not at all.
I enjoy this blog because of its original info on valuing children. Our culture doesnt do that. However, all of these points that you have made have come from either Vision Forum, Patriarchs Path, or the book you referenced. The reason I can see some similarities is because I have read all of those sites and the examples given are all the same. Well and good. But I believe no ones word or ideas UNLESS you have a Bible verse to back it up. Man is fallible. Trust in God alone.
Obviously, this is where we fundamentally disagree. Yes, I DO believe that God’s Word speaks explicitly that women were created for the home. I do not believe it is optional. It doesn’t even make sense that He would create two totally different people, and then give them the same mandate to perform. No, He needed two different people, to perform two different roles, to make one complete family. And people can get mad at me for saying that all day long, but HE is the Creator. We like to think that we can manipulate life and make up our own rules to suit our preferences. You speak of “opportunity” and “limits”, which implies that God’s design wasn’t good enough. It was His perrogative to create us with these distinctly different roles. We can either kick against it and ruin our lives, or we can joyfully submit and have abundant life.
I do not believe God can “call” my daughter to be an OB/GYN when he has already called her to be a keeper at home. Which is why I feel like sending her away to pursue a career is in direct opposition to her created nature.
If we REALLY believed that the Keeper at home is a sacred calling, exalted and honored, we wouldn’t dream of pursuing other “opportunities”. Everything else would be less.
And how did we ever get to the place where we exalt the institution of college to such a degree! It’s a place where people dump thousands of dollars, sit in an unrealistic classroom, listen to stale lectures, party, and get a degree. We can do better than that!
Unless you feel sorry for my sons, we have much higher expectations for them than what they will learn about industry at college. College will teach them how to be good employees; we are teaching them (and will find the best avenue to accomplish it) how to be good employers.
BTW, I have never said that we will absolutely not let our sons pursue a college degree. It is true, if the Lord leads them in the direction of a career that can only be secured by a college degree, then we will pursue that route.
And to assume that an eighteen year-old-girl is “safe” on a college campus is a horrible assumption. I’m so glad that you escaped unscathed, but I didn’t. And most of the girls I knew didn’t. What little education I received in college pales in comparison with the scars I received there.
You make my “fear” out to be something ridiculous. All arguments of faith and religion aside, a girl can hardly expect to go to the mall by herself without being abducted. And you want me not to fear for my tender, young girls?
In Deuteronomy, when a woman was married and then discovered to not be a virgin, she was stoned in front of her father’s house. This was not her punishment…it was her father’s for his unprotection. Do you think that father would have pushed his virgin out to Sodom and said, “Well, I’ve taught you well. Make me proud!”?
Lastly, we are debating on two different planes. The core of the issue is what we believe about God’s mandate for women. If you believe that He doesn’t really have an opinion, then there is no argument that could sway you otherwise. But if you believe that God, because He ordained it to be so, created woman with a distinct, honorable role in the home, and that role is not optional for the proper functioning of the family, then you see it from an entirely different light.
These principles are the same yesterday, today and forever.
I thank you for your time here. Like a good berean, I check to make sure what is being said comes from scripture. I dont know if you were going to address my points or are doing that now, or perhaps you are trying to answer both Elizabeth and me at the same time. In any case, its late, good night. Jen
Wait, I just saw this, you wrote “a sacred calling, exalted and honored”. Didnt Jesus make himself of no reputation? Arent we supposed to be like Him? If so, why are we worried if homemaking, mothering is honored or exalted??? We should be following Jesus and not caring about how our titles are viewed by others.
Jennifer,
I’ll try to make this the last post concerning this topic, simply because we obviously have two diametrically opposed views.
Your post was a little confusing, but I think I got most of it.
Still again, I’m being accused of forbidding the “unmarried to continue learning”, even though I’ve stated the opposite on every response. I think this fact clearly reveals that you are only seeing what you want to see, and not listening to everything. And since I have never said it is wrong for the unmarried to continue learning, I do not have to post Scripture and verse. What I have alluded to, is that Scripture (Titus 2) speaks of women teaching the younger women to be keepers at home, so that the Word of God is not blasphemed. That’s pretty clear to me, but if you want to redefine it, that’s between you and God.
The example of obeying the law and therefore being the lawgiver’s helpmeet didn’t make any sense.
(And by the way, speaking of “Pastor Dave”, the danger of women being other men’s helpmeets is no stronger revealed than in church institutions. How many times do we hear the dreaded news of the pastor and his secretary? It just wasn’t God’s design for men and women to spend so much time together without their spouses. And I don’t need a Scripture and verse to figure that one out. I’m not accusing your pastor, just making a point.)
No, the Bible does not use the terminology “helpmeet” when referring to daughters and their fathers. But it commands that a daughter honors and obeys her father and mother, and the natural deduction from that is that she “help” him. Generally, that means helping her mother and in so doing being a “partner” helpmeet to the father. Just as a carpenter would apprentice under his father for the trade he would one day practice, it only makes sense that a daughter train for her station.
I am thankful that you have never met anyone who “just sad around after grade twelve”. That would be a waste of a life. However, I know many unmarried young women who are using their gifts and abilities to bless their families, neighbors, churches, and other ministries. They certainly do not sit around! And guess what else…they are pursing a higher education! These women are fiercely intelligent, talented, humble, joyful, full of vision, and a joy to all who meet them. I only wish I had been given the opportunity to flourish as that kind of woman when I was their age! What else could we want for our daughters?
I’ve also seen these type of women marry. It is the most uniquely beautiful thing you will ever see! Perhaps that is the biggest obstacle between your view of it, and mine. I have seen many real-life examples of what God intended a woman to be, and it makes me sick for our culture’s version.
Man IS fallible. And we’ve made a big mess of the whole thing. You imply that I’m basically making up this whole thing about women’s roles. But I believe Scripture speaks directly about it, we just don’t want to listen.
And finally, to address that we should not be concerned about our reputations…I don’t recall ever hinting in that direction. I think you know that by acknowleging the homemaker’s role as “exalted, and sacred”, we are ascribing the same value that God places on it. Here’s your chapter and verse: (Prov. 31 “Her price is far above rubies…her children will rise up and call her blessed, and her husband also.”)
I have said many times that being a wife and mother of noble character means losing your life, in many ways, so that we can find it. It means sacrifice and NOT searching for the world’s praise.
To say that our role is an exalted one, is merely to restate what our Heavenly Father has already said, not to desire the praise of men.
You have this funny idea that if I have a male for a boss that I am going to cheat on my husband with my boss. Excuse me, but that is HILARIOUS! Give me a little more credit.
Also my whole point is that you are going BEYOND what SCRIPTURE says. You do well enough regurgitating what Doug Phillips, or Stacy Mc Donald say.
Lets give an example here. You like the verse in 1 Tim. MEE TOO a whole bunch. But lets take it in order. “marry, bear children, rule the house” (1 Tim. 5:14) No where does this say a young woman must stay homeand THAT is the basis for this whole post. If there is no marriage then there is no instruction on what to do ASIDE of honor your father and mother. That in itself is not saying women must stay home till married. If you can point out where it states the things UNMARRIEDS will do, you will have me.
First, to relieve your fits of laughter, I never inplied that if you worked for a male you would cheat on your husband. I stated FACTUAL evidence that affairs in the workplace have skyrocketed since women joined the force. With that, you cannot argue. And where ever there is an EFFECT, one must consider the CAUSE.
I’m accused of going beyond Scripture. I can just as easily say that you are ignoring or twisting Scripture. You have completely ignored examples of young women cleaving to their homes untiL marriage that are given in the Old Testament.
But more than that, you are not combinbing logic, wisdom and discernment together with what Scripture says (which we must do on many topics that are not explicitly addressed).
“Teach the young women to be discreet, chaste, to love their husbands and children and to be keepers at home.”
Teaching implies an education toward something. A training of the mind toward something. If a woman is instructed to teach a young woman to “marry, love family, and stay at home”, how can she accomplish that and at the same time tell her it’s a good thing to leave home, go off to college where her need for independence is going to be magnified, where she will be prepared to spend her future immersed in an all-consuming career, where all her focus will center around what SHE will be doing.
And even if she does choose, after all of that, to stay home, she will have lost some of the most precious training time of her life.
This is not rocket science! There are a few women who are able to lay aside most of the feminist indoctrination, all the money spent on their degree, all the time involved studying a specific field, and be content to stay home and love it. But not many. I’ve seen it over and over.
Again, think of the slippery slope concept. One hundred years ago, this wasn’t even an issue. Women loved home because they were trained to, expected to, and encouraged to from birth right up until the day they married. Then we were “liberated” (what an irony!). Now we can go to college like a man, and work like a man, and no more oppression for us! What are the statistics now? And don’t even go outside the church, since we are discussing Christian mandates and the role of God’s people. How many women still embrace the love of home as they did before? You have to ask yourself why. Cause and Effect. There has to be a reason. What is it?
You want me to show you where Scripture specifically gives directions for an unmarried woman. We both agree that according to Scripture, a married woman is to be a keeper at home.
Does it makes sense that someone who wants to be a doctor, spends his years prior to practicing as an accountant?
Or really more true to life, considering how OPPOSTIE the message received at a university is to the mandate to be a keeper at home, would it seem logical that a man aspiring to be a pastor would go spend 4-6 years being educated under atheistic teaching just before his first job?
These examples seem absurd, but it’s exactly the same thing. You are implying that even though God desires a woman to be a keeper of her home, to be her husband’s helpmeet, to be a humble servant, to be selfless and sacrificial, and we are to TEACH her to be that, that we can spend her years prior to marriage teaching her to be everything opposite that.
And if you believe that in college she will be trained toward selflessness, humility, grace, submission, how to love her husband and children, and how to be a keeper at home, then you are very confused. After all, the whole motto of college is basically, “get your degree so you can get a decent job”…you said it yourself.
If we want women to love home and family when they are married, we must aim all of their training toward that end. And yes, it is possible that a few years of college can undo a young woman’s training received at home. I’ve seen it happen over and over, and I experienced it.
There is certain logic that doesn’t have to be spelled out in Scripture. To demand a chapter and verse to spell out things that are already so clear, is to want a loop hole to avoid obedience.
The very idea that you are demanding a chapter and verse, reveals how your worldview is so infected by the feminist culture.
Let me also suggest that I think your idea of a true homemaker is somewhat underdefined. You mentioned already the young woman who “sits around all day”, as if that’s your picture of the unmarried girl in waiting.
A woman embracing the true picture of what a homemaker should be, NEEDS that time between high school and marriage to continue her training and education as a homemaker.
And while I highly respect the people you mentioned–Doug Phillips, Stacy McDonald (who is a friend), and many others who share my world view, it is not really kind to say that I merely regurgiate their ideas.
But, I would rather be accused of regurgitating the ideas of godly men and women, than the ideas of Communist-minded folks like Karl Marx. (A little research will reveal to you that he began the feminist movement with his idea that the traditional roles of the home must be turned upside down, and the fastest way to do that is to get the women out of the home–the sooner the better.) Hmmmm….looks like he’s doing a pretty good job.
You said “The very idea that you are demanding a chapter and verse, reveals how your worldview is so infected by the feminist culture.”
No, its called being a good Berean. The very fact that you do not have any verses on what unmarried women are supposed to do, proves my point. There is just speculation on what to do. There is no Bible proof. Therefore you are going on and on with more and more words, without the only thing valid, and that is the Bible.
I will end my discussion here. You have had adequate time to prove your point THROUGH THE BIBLE and it just cannot be done. The only one TWISTING scripture is you by saying that women should stay home if they want to do things “biblicallly”. Until you have Bible proof, its just your opinion.
Kelly:
I agree with Jennifer, here.
I, too, think you’ve overstepped & cannot adequately & Biblically prove that an unmarried woman should stay at home until she is married.
You can’t even admit that it’s speculation!
Instead you resorted to wild hypotheticals, hyperbolic scenarios, and general fear-mongering (ie. Jennifer & I are influenced by feminist ideas, that we have been taken in by Satan’s subtle lies, that if we have a male boss we are prone to adultery!)
This is ridiculous.
Jennifer & I both enjoyed our college experience and are still solid Christians! There are many like us. We love and serve Jesus Christ and did so while being young women in college!
I think you have been overly influenced by the sources Jennifer mentioned instead of simple Scripture.
As such, your points are nothing more than opinions & speculation.
I, too, respectfully bow out.
Hi Kelly,
. 
. At 16 I was top of my class which wasn’t hard because there was so little real academic work! I wrote a couple of papers but most of our time was spent listening to the teacher lecture on “moral issues” and watching movies (Yes, movies in ENGLISH class?!) that contained highly immoral content. I never took another college course and I am so glad that I didn’t because I can see how that would wear a person down after multiple years and multiple classes, and the system is only getting worse. I had already become a little rebel by a year in a government high school and I know the semester in the college class didn’t help any 
. Our girls will not be going to college. On the other hand, correspondence courses, apprenticeships under another woman, etc. are not off limits and will be considered, but not required, for each daughter. It only makes sense that if our daughters are to spend their lives loving and helping their husbands, loving their children and keeping their homes that they should be spending their unmarried years focused on preparing for that. With our son/s college will be decided on a case by case bases but we are actively pursuing other forms of higher education for them as well and our desire is that they would become employers instead of employees. I truly don’t think that going away to a secular college will ever be O.K.. My husband has been in management for many years and he has never been to a single college class. He proved his success to us by giving up a district manager position for a store manager position because he felt the money wasn’t worth being away from his #1 priority, his family, so often.
.
! I can’t wait until their new documentary comes out! I haven’t read that they have called college for young ladies a “sin”. They HAVE agreed that the Bible never says that college is off limits to girls and that they were trying very hard to only advance ideas that could be defended biblically. They said their goal was to get young ladies and their parents to ask themselves, “If a young woman determined to think and act biblically, how would she live?”. They also touch on careerism and acknowledged that it is not technically ever called a sin either but that it would be sinning to actively pursue something contrary to God’s will for the family. In other words, we need to make sure we are understanding and fulfilling our God-given roles in everything we do. I wasn’t aware there was a controversy over the book but I am glad to have the opportunity to counteract any slander against these young ladies that anyone has heard. I wonder if any of these ladies have read the book themselves?
. And when it comes to widows, abandoned wives, etc. God didn’t forget them 
. He has laid out his plan for their provision in His word also. 
!
I am a fairly new reader and have been really encouraged by all of your posts that I have read so far, including this one
I was homeschooled for most of my schooling career and at 16 I took a college course in English. That was the most ridiculous thing I have ever gone through in my life
As I was reading through the comments I was absolutely astounded to see someone asked why you were afraid of a little confusion! Oh my goodness! Here is why we feel convicted, by scripture, to keep our children sheltered from confusion, not out of fear but out of wisdom, as long as they are under our covering (which we feel is until they marry)…
“For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.” ~1 Corinthians 14:33
And
“For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.” ~James 3:16
Confusion is on the same level as “evil works” and we are told that God is not the author of confusion so if you agree that confusion is in any way a likely fruit of a college education you are agreeing that your children are learning things of the Devil, the author of lies and apparently also the author of confusion (If God is not the author of confusion than it stands to reason the Devil is). So, it appears to me that if we purposefully allow our children to sit under teachers that will create confusion we are purposefully putting them in the path of the Devil and that could cause them to stumble and you know what the Bible says about causing others to stumble…especially our children…
I could go on and on
I am currently reading “So Much More” to my almost 10 year old. This is the second time I have read it and it is so full of information!!! They did a great job of documenting their points, both biblically and socially speaking. They are definitely a couple of well educated young ladies
As far as women who are required by their husbands to take on both the curse of the woman and the curse of the man, I feel greatly for them
I loved your analogy of a preacher preparing for his future under an atheist
By His Grace,
Shelby
Shelby,
Thank you for your encouraging response. You made some extremely thoughtful points that needed to be addressed.
I’ve decided it’s all about a worldview. Your world view shapes every area of your life. And if your world view embraces godly femininity, homemaking and servanthood, then, as you pointed out, every decision, every activity, every mode of conduct should be centered around nurturing that.
And in a Godless culture like we live in, we must be extra vigilant to keep our children from the evil one.
I think a lot of people are confused about “sheltering our children from anything evil” (which we couldn’t do even if we tried), and purposely handing them over to be taught and instructed by evil. BIG difference!
Jennifer and Elizabeth,
Thank you ladies, both very much for your time, energy and input in this debate. It has been invigorating.
I am truly grateful that you were preserved through college. I wish I could say the same of myself, and the scores of women I know who were so scarred.
And I’m thankful that you don’t live many other areas of your life with a “must-have-Scripture-proof” philosophy. (Just think about that one for a while.) I think we must tread carefully when we claim freedom in any area that is not explicitly spelled out as forbidden in the Bible. That leaves us open to so many tragedies!
For the record, I was never trying to prove that the Bible said unmarried women could not go to college. I’m saying that what the Bible DOES say, along with all the statistics, leaves us with a logical conclusion that they should not.
Ane one more thing, to the accusation of using “wild hypotheses, hyperboles, etc.”…tsk, tsk, Elizabeth, they should have taught you in college that a hypothesis is an “imaginary” situation, unproven and undocumented.
That a large majority of Christians who enter college abandon their faith is FACT.
That the number of affairs has reached astounding heights since women entered the workforce is a FACT.
That most young girls who go on to pursue a degree do not return home as a homemaker upon marriage is a FACT.
That the acceptance of women trying to hold down two full time jobs is a direct result of feminist influence is a FACT.
Insult if you must, but insult accurately
I have enjoyed debating. I pray, as a sister in Christ, for your grace and abiding fervor for the Lord Jesus. (And for the little growing one you carry, Elizabeth!)
Wow! I just read this whole comment tree and I’m half exhausted. My wife suggested I might find this interesting. I hope it’s not bad form for a man to comment!
Much has already been said that I might have, but let me add a few thoughts:
I don’t know any of you ladies from Eve, as it were. But I get the distinct impression that Jennifer and Elizabeth either a) attended Christian college, or b) attended college a long time ago, or c) attended a small college. I’m not at all saying anything bad about any of these possibilities, incidentally. I am, however, going to remind any one that needs reminding of the massive and systemic secularization of your average, large state-run university.
I run into many well-meaning Christian parents who simply don’t understand just exactly how intense the assault on Christianity is on a major state-U campus. To put it metaphorically, it could be argued that the gates of Hell are under these universities! These parents expect that their children will buck the trend, they’ll be the exception to the rule.
But let’s be clear, the rule is simple: virtually every in-coming Christian freshman is an out-going secularist, at best.
All of us who graduated from such a university can give you anecdotal horror stories, and all that I know will vouch for the startling fact that so few Christians even keep their faith through the experience, let alone do what we’re designed to do – grow. Perhaps those who happened to have the statistically rare “good experience” at college need to keep in mind that they represent the exception to the rule.
Let me also say that college education is vastly over-rated. There is convincing evidence to suggest that the quality of American education has slipped so far that we’ve lost the equivalent of a grade-level about every twelve years since the early 1900s. In other words, what is today considered a High School education (through grade 12) in the 1920s would have constituted merely a fifth grade education. Seriously.
Example: when I first begun studying Classical Greek, it was in a 501 level university course. I was struck by some unusual features of the textbook I was reading, though, so I began to do a bit of research into the book. It turns out that my 501 level college (technically Masters level) course textbook was, in the 1920s, … a High School book – usually used in 10th or 11th grade. And it presumed that these students had already taken two years of Latin (many of the footnotes are in Latin, etc…).
Another example: I once taught 10th grade students at a small Christian school. I had 22 students, most of whom could be safely categorized as average- to below-average students (there were two notable exceptions, but that’s another story!). Early in their 10th grade year, they took a standardized test (Maryland aptitude). My students consistently tested at what Maryland called “grade level 12.5″. In other words, my “average” students were more than two years ahead of their state school counterparts.
College fundamentally teaches you how to “co-operate and graduate”. Getting an education is optional, and can be just as readily accomplished without even enrolling. The only thing the diploma often does is provide cultural legitimacy to the education one did (or didn’t) receive.
This turned out much longer than intended. My point is simply this: it’s hard to overstate either the damning influence of a university environment or the superfluity of a college education.
Education is great stuff. Sadly most confuse a degree with an education. Often the two are not the same.
I was going to go on to address the often lost Reformation doctrine of vocation, and how it applies to this situation, but I see I’ve already surpassed 600-odd words. Perhaps more later…
Nathan
Oh, I should have added (for the sake of context) that I very often disagree with the Vision Forum folks and count myself in the Missional and Emerging-friendly crowd – a group I’ve little doubt Mr. Phillips would condemn. A brief look through my blog will readily confirm this, lest anyone accuse me of merely regurgitating someone else’s stance.
; )
Nathan
Nathan,
It’s great to have a man comment on my blog! I appreciate your enlightening and articulate information. I think it’s helpful to hear from others on this subject, lest my readers think I’m making it all up based on my “fears”, etc.
Thanks so much for your input and you are welcome anytime!
Nathan—
I was going to stay out of the rest of this debate, until you made incorrect assumptions about my college experience.
I graduated in 2002 from a major, non-Christian, state university.
Thus, your attempt to invalidate my experience is futile.
In addition, your supposed “fact” about virtually every Christian emerging a converted secularist requires proof. Where are you getting your facts?
On the contrary, I recently read in a major news publication (TIME magazine), that Christian groups are experiencing a resurgence and revival on many secular college campuses throughout our nation.
This was, indeed, my own experience.
Certainly there are anecdotal stories for any persuasion, but to make blanket generalizations is faulty logic at best.
I can think of no better place to serve Christ than at these very “gates of Hell” as you call state universities.
Yes, I require chapter and verse. No, I do not ascribe to “worldviews” built on the basis of a few Old Testament references (non-virgins being stoned as Biblical proof? um…not buying it).
Yes, I require facts. I do not give credibility to unsubstantiated theories. This does not make me “infected by feminism.” This makes me a thorough researcher and as Jennifer pointed out, an honest Berean.
Research, critical thinking and the ability to express myself in written language are the fruits of my college education.
That is what I call money well spent.
Elizabeth, I merely said that I had the impression you were in one of those three categories. I didn’t know that to be true. Generalizations are just that – generally, but not always, correct.
My BS is from the University of Michigan. Don’t take this the wrong way (I’m not bragging), but Michigan is generally regarded as one of, if not the premier state university in America. I’ll be happy to quote all manner of evidence to back this up, if you like. But despite that fact, I’m telling you as a graduate of this institution that the quality of “education” is bordering on ridiculous. I seriously think I would’ve been better off to have enrolled in the nearby (and cheap) community college and then spent evenings at Michigan’s library. I could’ve received every bit as good an education at a fraction of the cost, and with likely much fewer of the myriad assaults on my faith.
Anyway, I think you’ve merged two issues into one, at least in regards to your comments about my remarks. I couldn’t agree with you more that there’s “no better place to serve Christ than at these very ‘gates of Hell’”. We (Christians in general) gave up the bastions of higher learning years ago and attempted to create our own version of them instead. As a result, we have the present situation – the quality of both education and ethics is abysmal! I long for the days when Christians will begin to make efforts to be an active part of culture, rather than fleeing from it.
But… that doesn’t change the fact that the large majority of kids that enter college/university as Christians leave at best having plateaued in their faith, more often largely abandoning it.
In the interest of “proof”, consider one of the most raging debates in Christian leadership today: where have all the 20-somethings gone? Pick up any magazine on Christian leadership, pastoral ministry, or church demographics and it becomes quickly obvious that nearly every kid that went off to college as a “church goer” leaves college as a “non church goer”.
I give you one specific example: I recently attended a conference at an enormous church very near two large state schools. When I say very near, I mean within 15 minutes of two schools whose combined attendance exceeds 60,000 students. When I say enormous church I mean a church that averages over 12,000 people every Sunday.
Anyway, I spoke with the Small Groups Pastor about various matters and it so happened that we passed a somewhat small room in the building. I asked what it was for. A staffer nearby told me it was where their college students met. Here’s the facts from this specific example:
That past Sunday’s total attendance: 12,700.
That past Sunday’s total college-age attendance: less than 80.
The Christian church is unquestionably losing the postmodern generation, in large part because of the indoctrination these kids get at the state schools, both college and otherwise. Is this the entire problem? Of course not, but it’s a big part.
Survey after survey, study after study – kids that were active in their High School youth groups go off to state universities and (conservatively) at least 80% of them graduate and leave the life of the church. Some come back later – usually after they marry and have children. But I don’t see how the juxtaposition of state school “education” and the departure of said so “educated” from the life of the church indicates anything but cause and effect.
You ended your most recent comment with this thought:
“Research, critical thinking and the ability to express myself in written language are the fruits of my college education.”
I think that’s a fine and wonderful set of skills to have acquired. I would simply argue that you could have acquired them in much less time, for much less money, and with much less statistical risk of abandoning your faith through other means. I’d love to believe that your situation is the norm: go to college, get a great education, graduate a better Christ-follower than you started, serve Him for His glory. I just have stacks of magazines, studies, and various other research to indicate that you are the exception, not the rule. I thank God for your experience, but I don’t wish to roll those dice with my children.
Wisdom teaches us to set our children up for most likely success, not failure.
Thanks for reading and thinking,
Nathan
Kelly,
I was thinking about this blog the other day. This set of comments further confirms my appreciation of what you are accomplishing here. It’s so encouraging, so well thought out, so true. Truth is truth. I think it’s NAIVE to think that women in the work place is a good idea. I can tell that this person recently graduated and her husband doesn’t have much work experience yet. There are so many issues that come up and so many affairs and inappropriate situations from women in the workplace. Not the mention that women being in the workplace drives down the pay the men bring home and in a way penalizes those who choose to be keepers at home.
Feminism has sadly been so ingrained that people can’t see it for what it is.
Anyway, I want you to know that what you do with your time from your home is making a difference for the future and is so NEEDED.
It’s not sad at all, Bran; women are meant to work outside the home as well. There’s no reason whatsoever to assume that a woman can’t have a job during her single/childless years and also learn to be a helpmeet, something she does her WHOLE life. Any idea how many Christian women had jobs before and after being moms of little ones?
“I do not believe God can “call” my daughter to be an OB/GYN when he has already called her to be a keeper at home.”
That’s a HUGE problem. We desperately need women in the medical field, and I will NOT accept care about intimate issues from a man! Women are supposed to let only males worldwide give them breast exams, deliver babies, do pap smears? What if they’re not comfortable? We’re not supposed to be “helpmeets” to men not our husbands, but it’s ok for every inch of our bodies to be seen by men we’re not married to? I don’t think so. And what about rape victims? ANY idea of the medical procedures THEY go through? Virtually every part of their bodies is uncovered and scrutinized at some point, and having a man do this would be wicked and sinful in every way. To say that women are not called to professionally help such women is completely unwise. Not to mention things like cathaters and bed baths.
*exhales* Sorry Kelly, I know this was years ago, and you seem to have loosened up somewhat on whether women in general can ever work (in your childbirth video’s comments, the only problem you voiced with the female nurses, I think, was that they were moms, not women). I just feel very strongly about women’s comfort zones; they must be respected and given absolute dignity.
Bran,
Thanks for the encouragement!
Wow! Weren’t you just saying a mere two days ago that you wanted us all to stop lurking and begin commenting?
I just want to stand up and be counted as one who agrees with Word Warrior.
I have a graduate degree from a top Christian College (don’t be too impressed)…
I was “discipled” to “make my life count for eternity” by “maximizing my potential”… I was encouraged to consider my gifts and talents and pursue my 5 and 10 year career plan for God’s glory (evangelism and discipleship ministry being the ultimate). When I met my husband, it was important to me to make sure HE fit in with God’s plan for my life (I remember shuddering at the thought of “following him”)… I felt that “anyone could raise kids” (too ordinary and mundane for someone of my caliber) and that children would be a “distraction” to pursuing God’s best for my life (robbing me of valuable time, energy, and opportunity to pursue what “really counted in eternity”). My husband and I never spoke of having children…I simply didn’t want any.
I, too, was highly involved in ministry, missions, and other God honoring activities while in college…but my attitude was not God honoring. I was sincere…but sincerely wrong. I was prideful, self absorbed, and disdainful of what I thought to be “ordinary”.
I thank the Lord for His grace and mercy and for changing my heart and my attitude about being a wife and mother. I shudder to think what I might have missed, how God’s kingdom would not have included the six blessings with which He has honored us.
I wouldn’t change a thing about my marriage or my 18 years as a mother…EXCEPT I regret exceedingly having wasted those first 5 years of marriage…being so prideful and selfish before the Lord changed my heart about family.
When I think of my college days, I don’t remember any…ANY…female role models encouraging me to value family or to consider being a wife/mother a high calling and privilege. They simply didn’t exist! (And this was at a famous Christian College with required daily chapel, Bible and theology classes.)
For our children, going to college won’t be the “automatic” next step after graduation. We will prayerfully seek the Lord’s guidance with our eyes wide open to all the “costs” of a college education.
(Costs: Time, Finances, Spiritual Encouragement, Biblical Worldview, Opportunities, etc.)
I wanted to thank you for your blog, it has been very encouraging to me. I was raised in a christian home and I believe I have been a christian since a young child, BUT I embraced a humanistic world view. I did eveything the world (and most churches) recommended…I graduated from high school, went to a great university, where I became even more of a humanist and wasted ALOT of time and money. From there I got married went on the pill and persued my career. The typical feminist life.
I have been married now 10 years, and the past 2 years the Lord has done great things in our life. First, we began really reading the Bible from cover to cover, and we began making that our standard. After that happened things began to change and so did our worldview. My husband became a leader, I am striving to be a helpmeet (and now understand what that really means), although my homemaking skills are not as they should be due to my wasting time as a youth, I am striving to be improve in that area. We gave the Lord control of our life, this includes our fertility. We are traiing up our children, not the sunday schools or the govt schools.
We are so thankful for our eyes being open to this bibical worldview but it is so different from most churches, that many times we fill very alone, many christian friends dont agree. That is why I appreciate your blog so much, it is a refuge of encouragement.
I thank you for your wisdom and diligence in this work.
Nathan,
Your points about state-run-U, unfortunately do not JUST apply to such. My husband is working on a M.Div at a top-notch seminary. He comes home daily telling me of his debates with professors who are so socially liberal that we may as well be at a state-run-U! It’s sad…and scary!
Whether our children will attend a Christian college, State University, Seminary or even go to the market, they sure better have a foundation in the Word and know how to articulate it!
I didn’t go to college. Later I got my certification as a childbirth educator and doula (a profession only a woman who has had children should have). My brother did not go to college, but right into the ministry. Later he got an AA. My sister did go to a Christian college for two years. When she finished her degree she came home to live with my parents. All three of us lived with my parents until we married.
My brother is now a pastor with a landscaping business. Married with four children.
My sister is a SAHM,married to a doctor, and is serving the Church.
I am a SAHM with five children married to a pastor/missionary.
I don’t think there are any hard fast answers here. There is no one way that will be right for everybody. A woman may need a formal education to be a helpmeet for her husband, depending on what that man does! She may not. The only way to be safe is to listen to the leading of the Holy Spirit.
I’ve found raising my little tribe that I have to rely on the Holy Spirit and be in the Word all the time in order to raise them as the unique little creatures they are! Who knows what God has in store for them! My six year old daughter says she’s going to be a missionary and Bible translator. (I don’t think that excludes being a wife and mommy, ’cause I am a missionary, too!) If what she says is true she may need a little formal education. God could of course change her mind before she is ready for that!
I won’t say she can’t go to college and I won’t say she can either. I think when the time comes for that it will be a prayerful decision and made very carefully.
Daja
I’m the anonymous from the very first comment.
I have read with interest the other many comments. Thank you for responding directly to me.
I wanted to clarify a couple of my points. First of all, I completely agree that college for many is a waste of time and resources. THose who go to college for the college experience or because they “are supposed to” need to seriously think about other options. I don’t think college should be considered mandatory or a necessary life experience. In my case I went to college for a specific degree for a specific profession. My courses were pretty much in science and directly related to my degree (PT) Personally I do agree that if you don’t know what you specifically are going to do with your college degree it is best not to go.
That said, Several of my female friends I made in college have become SAHM’s. And intended to do that. I know this is somewhat annecdotal, but I have found among my friends that those who start out believing that is what they should do tend to keep that opinion. It starts in the home really.
I also agree that if more women place less emphasis on careers we would not need as much involvement of gov’t in social issues (I work w/ the elderly and see the need)
But, I also don’t find singleness and involuntary childlessness to be rare. Not the majority, but common. This too may be annecdotal. Due to my experinces I have become very careful about the idea that the best for a woman is to me a homemaker. (Not that you specifically said this) I used to believe this, and it nearly drove me to suicide when I could not fulfill that “best” and become a mother. I realized that the “best” I could be was what GOd had given me to be and for several yrs that was not being a mother.
Guess I agree with being more careful about who goes to college (both men and women)And it is highly overrated! But I have a hard time saying no altogether to college for girls. God can call us to some interesting places!
Alison,
I was really encouraged by your response. As I try to balance this blog with caring for my own family, I want to make sure that I don’t just get caught in the “hobby” of it…if it doesn’t encourage, challenge, and provide a refuge for women like you, it’s not worth it.
Thanks for posting!
ANON,
Thanks for your post. I wanted to address the issue you mentioned about not believing homemaking is every woman’s calling due to childlessness and singleness.
I’m not sure I understand your situation completely, but I know many women who are either single or childless feel that they have somehow been left out of God’s plan, and were not meant to be keepers at home.
And certainly these women have freedoms in some areas they may not have otherwise, but I believe they hold amazing opportunities for ministry within the context of the family and society.
I haven’t done as much research or studying on this issue, so I wanted to post some really great articles on these subjects from “Ladies Against Feminism” for those women who perhaps do feel at a loss about their roles.
The following links should prove to be helpful:
http://www.ladiesagainstfeminism.com/cgi-bin/artman/search.cgi
http://www.ladiesagainstfeminism.com/artman/publish/Especially_for_the_Unmarried_25/index.shtml
I know this is an old post, but seeing as it applies to me I thought I’d comment on it. I’m in my third year of college and have recently come to see the beauty of being a helpmeet to my husband one day (Lord willing). My parents believe that a degree is necessary. I feel like I’m wasting so much precious time (not to mention their money) by driving to school and sitting in the classroom. I’ve prayed for a while that the Lord will open up another door and I know that He is able, but for right now I feel a little… trapped. There are so many instances where I have to forcefully shut off my brain when my teacher or textbook says something that is contrary to the Bible. I took Family Resource Management because I thought that maybe this would be a class teaching how to manage a family budget and be resourceful with the money you have… boy was I wrong. The book is all about how the government now defines a family, and all sorts of out-there philosophies. I’m not learning anything. As a matter of fact, I’m trying my hardest to NOT learn anything there. Not to mention the times when I feel unsafe walking across campus. So I guess what I’m saying is that even if you don’t think a young woman going to school is “wrong”, I just don’t see how it’s even practical.
I’ve been a student to three different colleges. And let me tell ya, the most important stuff I learned only came from one or two classes from each of them! Granted, I enjoyed some of the experiences I gained. But I’m seriously doubting if even those were worth the investment. Hard to say.
An education is not the same thing as a degree. One thing I know our education systems are not providing enough of is smart money-handling! Oh, if I had learned then what I had to learn by trial and error now, I probably would’ve avoided college altogether and wouldn’t have this pile of student loan debt to fret about for goodness knows how many years! The beauty of having the internet is that you can always do your own research without dropping thousands of dollars a year, and can write your own essays too! On relevant topics, anyway!
I do know that having one-on-one teaching, like apprenticeships, and small groups of students per instructor make for better learning experiences. My specialty outside of homemaking is that I am an artist and illustrator. I can always take a workshop (can last for 1 day or 1 week) or communicate with a professional for critiques. A big part of being educated, to me, means thinking outside of the box AND outside of the classroom!
Whoa. Kelly, you’re more conservative here than I’ve even known you to be. “So Much More” is a severe and often legalistic book that promotes extreme “ownership” of a father over his daughter and goes WAY beyond college. It’s widely criticized by feminists, egalitarian Christians and complimentarian Christians alike because it’s so extreme and stifling in its one-size-fits-all ideas. The idea of a woman being helpmeet to her father is unBiblical and harmful!! The Botkins even deleted this statement without explanation from their site, and James Mcdonald then denied that they’d ever had it up to begin with. The Botkins refer to outdated Mosaic laws to defend the harmful ideas of fathers owning and commanding their grown daughters.
I haven’t read “So Much More,” but if the authors are promoting the idea of a woman being a help meet to her father as if it were a mandate, then I agree, Jennifer, that notion is unbiblical. Scripture clearly shows the help meet context refers to the husband/wife relationship. It is not a command regarding the father/unmarried daughter relationship, which is unfortunately the way some people view it and attempt to live it out.
Thanks for mentioning that.
Thank you six arrows. It is indeed an unhealthy mandate.
And btw, I fully expect my husband to welcome me by his side in slaying monsters and riding dragons; nothing unnatural about that at all. This is what women were made for, to conquer the world for God with men, right at their side.
The extremes some women go to are just humorous to me. I mean really..women NEVER having jobs? Think about this: no female actors (Christian films would flop as well as every other one), no female figure skaters, or ballet dancers. Or counselors, or missionaries, or caretakers. No way!