Comments on: Courtship–Gaining Popularity

By: » Dating, Courtship, Marriage

» Dating, Courtship, Marriage — Wed, 19 Aug 2009 19:18:03 +0000

[...] Courtship Gaining Popularity [...]

By: Lori

Lori — Sat, 01 Nov 2008 18:20:00 +0000

Oops. Thank you, SM, not CS! *blush*

By: Lori

Lori — Sat, 01 Nov 2008 18:18:00 +0000

Steve - Thank you for the blog link. That one's going into my "favorites - family" file.

Kim M. - Quite right

CS - Thank you for your helpful, touching story.
"These issues now cause a battle they would rather not be having to fight."
"with each generation dating seems to further deteriorate and have more devastating effects"
"As we all know, things never seem to stay the same. Bad things ALWAYS get worse."

Thank you again.

By: Word Warrior

Word Warrior — Sat, 01 Nov 2008 18:08:00 +0000

Poignantly spoken, SM. Thank you for being a voice in the “slightly older generation” (Apparently all us “youngsters” have no idea what we’re talking about–you just lent credit!)

It behooves me that anyone would want to propagate such a destructive practice as recreational dating.

By: SM

SM — Sat, 01 Nov 2008 17:50:00 +0000

I know I am a little late joining this discussion. I have been sick and haven’t had a chance to check the website in a few days. First, THANK YOU, Kelly, for your original post and all the others (which I have now read) about courtship and/or betrothal. They have been very encouraging to my husband and to me. We are teaching our children, ages 13 and 11, that betrothal (or courtship) is God’s way for them to get to the marriage alter. Since we began this teaching early, they embrace it and are not at all interested in the boyfriend/girlfriend “game” at this time or in “recreational” dating for later on. We are very happy with the results we see in them (time spent pursuing their interests and preparing for adulthood rather than biting fingernails and worrying over who likes them and who doesn’t). My husband and I are very passionate about this subject. We have four grown children who, unfortunately, were raised to embrace the boyfriend/girlfriend game AND dating. God has been merciful, and they are all still in their first marriages. But we do see the ill effects from their years of playing the boyfried/girlfriend game and dating. Some of these effects are mistrust and suspicion, hurt when reminded of prior relationships their spouces had, and even “dreams” they cannot control about prior relationships. These issues now cause a battle they would rather not be having to fight. We watch and hurt for them and regret that we did not know the devastating, long-term consequences of dating. I read all the comments re your post, and I can’t remember who said what; but I would especially like to comment to the “older” lady/ladies who wrote about “good dating” practiced in “their day” and how all turned out well. I don’t know how old you “older” ladies are; but my parents are in their mid and late
70s, and I am in my early
50s. IF you are of MY generation, I would have to question whether your memory serves you well, because I KNOW that dating and the “boyfriend/girlfriend games” practiced in MY generation were very destructive and ANYTHING BUT Godly. MANY of those I grew up with (considered “the good kids”) not only engaged in pre-marital sex but are now divorced and re-married (some MORE than once). The ones who have stayed married have often been plagued with adulterous relationships on both sides. I would have to say to anyone in my generation, who still believes that dating (as we practiced it) is healthy and good, you are not a “thinking” person OR you are in denial and not facing the truth. HOWEVER, if you are in the same generation as my parents, then I would like to share my story with you; because I believe that many people in that generation look at the devastation in their families and in the lives of their children
(and now in their grandchildren) and DO NOT “connect the dots”, because the problems with dating were not quite so obvious at that time. We NEED that generation speaking out about WHY things have turned out so badly for SO MANY in my generation and why the next generation seems destined to have even more difficulty with staying married and/or remaining faithful. This is my story. Both sets of my grandparents practiced a form of courtship and would NEVER have been allowed to be alone with the opposite sex before marriage (it would have been unthinkable to them). If they were alive today, they would all be 100+ years old. I am SURE that I can say that they were all faithful to their spouces to the end and that they had very committed marriages for 55+ years. Unfortunately, however, while raising my parents, my grandparents discarded the teaching of their own generation and embraced what the “new” culture had to offer, which was seen as a better and more “free” and “fun” way to get to the marriage alter. In other words, they were more influenced by “culture” (the world)than they were by time-tested principles AND God’s word. Sadly, the outcome for my parents’ marriage, and many in their generation, was much different than for my grandparents and their generation. My parents practiced the boyfriend/girlfriend game AND dating AND they taught my brothers and I to do the same. (Of course, with each generation dating seems to further deteriorate and have more devastating effects). I won’t go into all the sorted details, but my father never seemed able to “settle down” in marriage and be satisfied. My mother never seemed quite satisfied either; her expectations were based more on fantasy than on reality. I believe BOTH my parents were victims of that new and very unGodly practice known as “dating”. They were both good people and had so many things going for them. My father did well in business, and my mother was blessed with a nice lifestyle while being a full-time mother and homemaker. My father was a leader in our church and taught Sunday School, and my mother was the church pianist. They loved us (3 children) dearly. But, finally, after 25 years of marriage, everything fell apart. My father could stand it no longer and left my mother so that he could marry his mistress. All the fantasy and excitment of this “new” marriage caused him to “ride off into the sunset” with his new bride, leaving my two brothers and I without the direction of a father, which we so desperately needed during our early adult years. I witnessed this same scenario with MANY of my friends’ parents. Of those who did stay married, MANY were involved in adulterous relationships through the years (the church kids ALWAY knew which adults were having “affairs”, though the offended spouces seldom seemed even slightly suspicious). My husband has worked in the legal profession for many years, and I worked in the medical profession in my younger years. Had it not been SO SAD, it would have been almost comical to witness the numbers of men (and sometimes women) in that “older” generation who were still trying to “date” while they were married. In the generation of my parents, adultery was RAMPANT, even in the church!!! In most any church we now visit in the metro area we grew up in, my husband can point to men in the 60 – 80 year age group and name the mistress/mistresses they have “kept” through the years. (He feels certain that their wives are “clueless”) And many of these men are STILL in leadership positions in the church. As we all know, things never seem to stay the same. Bad things ALWAYS get worse. (The enemy has a way of doing that) My heart BREAKS for the generation that preceded mine. My generation was more devastated than that one. And the next generation
(20s and 30s) seems to be destined to be even further plagued with marital problems. I realize that there are many things in this world that attack and undermine marriage, but I am firmly convinced that dating is at the top of the list. And this comes from personal experience and what I have witnessed. I will not deny that the “dating game” has seemed to work for some in the last three generations (although I wonder if they recognize the problems that have come from it), and certainly not every couple has divorced or been involved in adultery; but dating is, at the very least, a game of roulette. As for my husband and I, we ARE NOT willing to play this game with our children’s lives. I challenge anyone reading this comment, who is from the generation that preceded mine, to consider that it was YOUR generation who turned the corner and began doing things in a “new way” as far as getting to the marriage alter. Look around you; do you really believe it was a “good” turn??? If not, then PLEASE consider that defending dating is ONLY causing further destruction. Consider promoting the need to return to a “courtship” model that was practiced 100years ago (and in previous generations) that led to many generations of couples who were committed and faithful to their marriages until death parted them. It is YOUR voices we need to hear!

By: Kim M.

Kim M. — Sat, 01 Nov 2008 17:30:00 +0000

btw Lori, I loved what you had to say about slavery.
It has always been a mystery to me…yet a lot of people enslave themselves today! GREAT points!

By: Kim M.

Kim M. — Sat, 01 Nov 2008 17:25:00 +0000

Thank you Lori, I appreciate your comments.

I do have to say though that even though Paul may have been speaking to that particular generation, that I think that we should regard all of Scripture as profitable.

I believe that....

II Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

And that looking even at history of circumcision (the reasons for it and the reasons they were freed, etc) is profitable and has spiritual lessons.

Not that you are saying we shouldn't regard all of Scripture or anything .... I just feel like there are reasons that things are included in Scripture (even the things we don't understand).

Thanks again, I appreciate you taking the time....

By: Lori

Lori — Sat, 01 Nov 2008 15:20:00 +0000

cj -”slavery was legal” the kind of slavery that wsa legal was what we would call indentured servitude – the free man would sell himself for a period of years, maybe his family could be sold with him? I’m not sure, but they were released in the jubilee year. The “slave” could choose to be bonded to his master for life if he loved/trusted him. Someone could be forced into this form of “slavery” legally because they owed money that they could in no other way pay. Remember, borrowing money that you promise to repay and then don’t is stealing, and you have to pay it back. Hence, forced labor. For a few years. Even Soloman addressed this: “For a debtor is slave to the lender” Prov. 22:7. The slavery we tend to think of (Like west Africa) WAS condemned, as man-stealing/kidnapping: “adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 1 Tim 1:10.

“or divorce her on a whim”. They could divore, but not on a whim, and they were legally bound to each other until one died. They couldn’t remarry, so it was more like what we would call “separation” and not “divorce”. (1 Cor 7)

“a husband could legally beat his wife” What the heck? Which Bible are you reading?

I agree with a lot of you points, such as the issue is not action, but self control that guides action. These women are trying to protect their children’s actions by protecting their children’s environments. For a while. No one is suggesting chaining the kiddos to the house. I find your attitude and beliefs much harder than these ladies( and condecending :”you kids”), “That is because we were taught not to have sex before marriage. [B]ut everything else was a sin unless you were grown up and married, and so we controlled ourselves, and we WAITED.” Isn’t that just an external set of rules? What about caressing the hair, or necking, or hmmm, what else can I do without technically disobeying the good girl rules?
“When I was a teenager, only trampy girls and nasty boys went around having premarital sex”. OOUUCH! I know lots of very admirable people who, sadly, had sex before marriage. They were healthy, “in love” and unprotected by their elders. They have a lot to regret now, without you calling them “trampy” and “nasty”.

Kim M – “Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman” – I Corinthian 7:1

I believe that Paul was referring to the closely impending destruction of Jerusalem, which happened I think around AD 70. He specifically addressed his comment to “this gerneration” “in view of the present distress” (v 26)- “the time is short” (v 29), that is the believers who were going to be alive in AD 70, and running for the hills. I do not mean to say that this has no bearing on today, but like the issue of, I don’t know, say…circumcision, I just don’t think it’s a pressing issue. But I do think you make a lot of really good points, otherwise.

By: Kim M.

Kim M. — Fri, 31 Oct 2008 17:34:00 +0000

CJ,

I really do not want to be argumentative. (I am weary!)

I am not even saying that if you kissed your husband before you were married then you are on your way to the bad place. If that is the case, most of us would be in big trouble huh? If you think you were o.k. in doing that, then whatever…..

However, I do have the prerogative to feel that there is a better way and to teach my boys what I think is best( as you do/did with your own children…. that is my responsibility as their mom).

No one on this blog is shoving anything down anyone’s throats… Kelly blogged about it and I happen to agree/think that this is what I want for my own family.

That’s the fun of blogging. You can say what you want and people can read it … or not

Steve, I am not sure as I have seen what you are talking about. It may be that way in certain places, but most people by the time they are in their 20′s are legally free to choose what they want to do. I would think whatever way they behave is their own choice???

The bottom line is that I think people need to really go back to the Word for their guidelines… the answers are there.

By: Steve

Steve — Fri, 31 Oct 2008 15:20:00 +0000

I will admit that a lot of my issues I have with courtship come from seeing it forced upon single adults in the 20's and 30's and even older. I have seen where people in that age range act like teenagers with the opposite sex including being afraid of each other and contact.

The concept of doing things in groups might be appropriate for when one is just starting to date as a teenager but the big problem is where they take a "one size fits all" approach with this. A pastor takes something that might apply to his teenage daughters or a boy writes about a system that worked for him in his teens and then it is assumed that this is what should be done for all ages.

As people mature in age and in Christ, shouldn't the guidelines change?

Steve