If You’re Mad at Obama….

Conservative Christians are mad about the new president’s administration and the direction they’re taking our country–rightly so. I cannot get away from this thought…not intended to provoke anger, just contemplation.

We can look at this past election in two ways:

1. God appointed its members to their offices.

or

2. God used people as a means of bringing about the members to their offices, thus allowing judgment on the nation.

We were outnumbered in the 2008 elections. Simplest explanation. There were not enough grass-roots, conservative Christians in America to elect a God-fearing man to office.

Consider these commands from a different angle:

“Be fruitful and multiply.”

“If you obey Me, I will bless you; if you disobey Me I will curse you.”

We said, “No thanks.”

And I think God said, “Fine, have it your way.” Just like He does in every area of life in which we don’t submit to His authority and direction.

A once godly nation–a nation whose first President boasted…

“… Let me live according to those holy rules which Thou hast this day prescribed in Thy holy word … Direct me to the true object, Jesus Christ the way, the truth and the life. Bless, O Lord, all the people of this land.”

has elected a President who recently commented…”We are not a Christian nation.”

“Yet you say, “For what reason?” Because the LORD has been witness between you and the wife of your youth, with whom you have dealt treacherously; Yet she is your companion and your wife by covenant. But did He not make them one, having a remnant of the Spirit? And why one? He seeks godly offspring. Therefore take heed to your spirit, And let none deal treacherously with the wife of his youth.” Malachi 2:14,15

I probably talk about this issue a lot precisely because I don’t see it as much a personal one, as we would like to believe. What God’s people do in their personal lives affects God’s people in every way.

Again, broad statement, fully aware there are sometimes other details to consider. But on a whole, we said “no” to God’s heritage in our land, and we’re paying for it.

We would do well to consider.





45 Responses to “If You’re Mad at Obama….”

  1. Marci says:

    Amen sister! Our country did not get in the state it is in overnight. Christians sat in their pews too long and got too comfortable. Instead of shaping society, we let the society shape us.

  2. Dee says:

    Amen – you nailed it!

  3. Ace says:

    OR, you could look at it this way….they are being used to JUDGE God’s people…not fun!

    Many Blessings :)
    Ace

  4. Rachel says:

    I think Billy Grahams daughter hit it right on. During an interview after Hurricain Katrina, when asked why God would let this happen, she replied “We’ve been telling God to get out of our schools, out of our government, and out of our lives for years. He is a gentleman, He stepped out and let us have our way. And now you wonder where he went?” So very true. But all hope is not lost, the tide can turn and we can raise up a Godly nation yet.

  5. Ace says:

    Sorry, wanted to add in case that was confusing. I meant that you could look at it as though OF COURSE they are appointed by God (nothing gets by Him :) but it may be, and it would seem to be, to bring Judgement on an unrepentant and sinladden country….not a saving grace.

    Many Blessings :)
    Ace

  6. Word Warrior says:

    Ace,

    Yes, I meant that precisely; in fact, I’m going to clarify that in the post.

    Rachel–AMEN!

  7. kathy@TeachingGoodThings.com says:

    What did the Iseralites do while they were in Egypt? They married and had children. They did as God told them to do and they PROSPERED! Was that not why Pharaoh was so angry with them? It was their numbers and prosperity that Egypt feared. Isn’t God all about numbers? Multiplying! Increasing! Taking Dominion!!!

    God said with obedience there would be blessings and with disobedience there would be curses.

  8. Young Christian Woman says:

    Kelly: amen.

  9. Laura Ashley says:

    “There were not enough grass-roots, conservative Christians in America to elect a God-fearing man to office.”

    I actually disagree. There plenty of conservatives in America- they just weren’t all on the same page.

    Most voted for McCain but a sizable number voted for varies other candidates. Some don’t believe in women voting at all. Some decided not to vote out of protest. And yes, some conservative Christians voted for Obama.

    While liberals on the other hand weren’t so divided.

  10. Anonymous says:

    I am very upset about the direction our country is headed in so quickly. But I think a lot of people voted for Obama bc they were so upset about how things had gone under Bush. Also many Christians I knew wanted to see our country finally have a black president. I bet there are a lot of Christians out there who didn’t think if they voted for Obama that things would get like this. I have heard more than a few people say that they regret how they voted. Very scary times we are in.

  11. Kathy @ Teaching Good Things .com says:

    Anonymous,

    I agree many people voted for Obama because they wanted to be a “part of history”. Good grief! I’ve also heard it called White Guilt. I really could not care any less about a person’s skin color, it’s about INTEGRITY and ISSUES!!!

    Lots of work to do so we CAN MAKE A CHANGE!!!

  12. Michelle (She Looketh Well) says:

    A hearty AMEN, Kelly. By the way, I love that verse, it is one of our favorites. Actually one of the very verses the Lord used to lead us to trust Him and Him alone with the amount of ‘Godly seed’ He would bring forth from my womb. I can’t but LOVE that verse!

    I wish I could quote all the numbers that I hear about how many children Christians are having verses how many Muslims and such are having. It is so sad that the average number of children Christians have is something like less than 2.

    I am not advocated having babies just to have babies. I’m just saying, Who should know better how many ‘Godly seed’ should be brought forth??? Whether that be one or two or a whole passel. I know I don’t want that kind of decision on my shoulders.

    Thank you again for making us all think.

    Love ya Sister,
    Michelle

  13. Word Warrior says:

    Laura Ashley,

    You’re right; perhaps “conservative Christian” is no longer a specific enough definition; there were not enough Christians who understand government, understand God’s law, and deeply desire leaders who are truly God-honoring and God-fearing (we could go backward from here, because there weren’t even major candidates that fit this description). In this election, I don’t mean we were outvoted in that “democrat won over republican”…we were outnumbered a long time ago in our representation of what the country is willing to even tolerate as a candidate.

  14. Belinda says:

    I agree that we did not have the perfect choice in this election. We chose as a nation a long time ago the candidates that would be available in 2008.

    We chose during The Great Depression to have so many of our liberties taken away and for government to take care of us so that we could eat. Yes, I guess starvation would do that.

    I heard from older people during this election, scared of not having food on their table ,that would vote for anyone that promised to send this country on a more prosperous path again. Doesn’t matter the cost.

    During this election we heard a lot of talk about how things were during the Depression, not so much since.

    When I say we chose a long time ago, I mean before you and I were born when a godly nation chose not to trust in God anymore and, instead, chose to trust in government.

    We chose to limit family size and all able bodies work to make sure we had food on the table, because “no one can survive on one income anymore”(I hear that a lot). So without moms home to be involved in all aspects of childrens lives, schools had free reign to teach whatever because we were too tired and not paying attention anymore.

    We have chosen, as a nation, to turn away and let someone “more qualified”(big government) direct our lives. God has given us over to what we wanted.

  15. Anonymous says:

    “We are not a Christian nation.”

    No, we’re not. We’re a free nation. Free to worship how an individual chooses to worship. Free to not worship if we choose not to worship. The pilgrims left England because of religious persecution. Why? They wanted the freedom of choice.

    What gives Christians the right to demand that this nation be a Christian nation, governed by Christian leaders? This country was founded on freedom. “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…”

    “Jesus said, ‘My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place'” (John 18:36). God’s kingdom is not here. We are not to set up God’s kingdom on earth.

    “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen” (Matt. 28:19, 20). We are called to baptize, to teach all nations how to live. But everyone has the freedom of choice to choose God or reject God.

    I am a conservative Christian. But sometimes I’m afraid to call my myself a Christian because I might be labeled as a legalist, judgmental, and unwilling to accept someone who believes differently. I believe in freedom of choice. And if this makes people think I’m not a “grass-roots, conservative Christians” then I don’t want to be one.

    Cassandra

  16. Bethany Hudson says:

    I have to agree with Laura Ashely and Belinda on this one.

    In addition, I would have to say that this was a difficult election. Many who were on board with John McCain jumped ship when he chose Sarah Palin as his VP. Obama is a charismatic speaker, and his abilities as a diplomat read to many as wisdom. Moreover, the significance of having a black president is not something we can or should undermine. He made many black (and other minority Americans) believe that, for the first time, they might have a president who really cared about THEIR issues. That’s significant. And, for some people, yes, that was worth the vote. Unless we have been in their place, we cannot understand that decision.

    Besides, I don’t think we can say that just because a president is God-fearing he will make good, godly decisions (anymore than we can say it about a pastor) or that just because a president is not a conservative Christian that God cannot use him to establish His Will (just look at all the pagan kings in Scripture that God used to His Glory). I think the important thing is that we CONTINUE to trust God, no matter what the state of our government. Jesus was crucified by His government, and look what became of it! That’s not to say that we should be nonchallant about presidential elections or that they have no bearing on anything; certainly they are very significant. But, God is still in control, not the president.

    ~Bethany

  17. Word Warrior says:

    Regarding the nation being founded on freedom and thus “not a Christian nation”…

    I think there is a lot of confusion about this. We think that freedom means annihilation of any religion.

    A deeper study of our beginnings reveals a BLATANT claim by our nation’s founders that CHRIST is Lord. That does NOT mean that they were forcing every citizen to be a Christian. In that regard, yes, it was about freedom and still is.

    But they stated that our government would operate under the principles of God–unashamedly warning that when we turned from that we would destroy ourselves.

    So to reclaim our CHristian roots is not to say “if you’re not a Christian you’re not welcome here”.

    If people really understood the wisdom of God’s law, and recognized Him as Creator, they would understand that a nation opearating as “a Christian nation” is good for all, even those apart from Christ.

    It’s not a forcing of religion; it’s a recognition that God is supreme, and His laws are perfect for all people, whether you choose that particular religion or not.

    Complicated, yes…but I would strongly encourage Christians to study this concept deeply and get a full grasp of what our forefathers intended as this nation.

    And I agree with Belinda; this problem began a LONG time ago…forsaking God’s ways little by little created an impossible situation for Christians in this election.

    This post was slightly tongue-in-cheek meaning, oour problems didn’t begin this year, nor could they have been solved this year. The “outnumbering” of God’s people has been taking place for decades and I was trying to make a simple point that when God’s people increase, that is, His obedient people, the land will prosper–it’s a promise from Scripture that we saw for many years and are now seeing be revoked.

  18. Belinda says:

    Kelly,
    I completely agree that we need to have vision and think beyond this generation. That is, in fact, what our forefathers did. They wanted to establish a nation of freedoms for their childrens’ children.

    But, if there are no children and we live only for ourselves…well, here we are.

    We have to have the babies raised in Christain homes with vision that is instilled everyday.

    Deuteronomy 7 comes to mind, especially 7:1-7.

  19. Mrs. Taft says:

    I agree with Laura Ashley. Sad state of affairs, for sure. :( Glad our home is ultimately not here!

  20. Kimberly says:

    I think we are just getting what we deserve…God isn’t welcome here anymore…In so many aspects of even”christians” lives it is all a personal choice…As the mother of 9 children,my husband and I hae been ridiculed publicly for our ignorance, sometimes it feels like children unless they are #1 or #2 aren’t welcome either.
    In 1999, while pregnant with baby #6 and #4 and #5 on each hip, i was picking up more prenatal vitamins..A young church lady came in to pick up her rx, birth control pills..she told me if i would get some of her pills, i would stop getting into this kind of difficulty. This very sweet young woman, is the backbone of her church, and flash forward 2009 she is barren, and will never be able to carry a child, coincidence, i don’t know. I do know that God has been in control of the size of our family, and even with 3 losses, he has blessed us greatly. Being open to life or pro-life is so much more than being opposed to killing a baby.

  21. Word Warrior says:

    I think I’ll post some things from our founders to emphasize the reality that yes, we were supposed to be a CHRISTIAN nation…but have subverted that understanding with the false idea of what freedom means.

  22. the cottage child says:

    I wish I could print flyers of this post, along with the comments, to hand out, mail out, put under windshield wipers of cars….it has reminded me that….

    Christian woman are strong, diverse, educated, committed, knowlegeable

    We will not set Biblical correctness aside for political expediency, in government, church, or in our personal lives. The truth can be spoken in love.

    We don’t call names – we agree, disagree, encourage, enlighten and engage one another – steel sharpening steel

    We are not mean-spirited, narrow-minded, or backward thinking – as hard as the media try to suffocate
    us under those ugly labels

    I have been chewing on the gristle of the current administration and political climate for too long, so I decided, sitting in Church yesterday, to spit it out. Political correctness and “open-mindedness” are false idols, but so is the idol of blame….that’s looking backward, which is the opposite of the ressurection saga.
    There is nothing to be done about the crucifixion – the ugly work was done.

    I believe that our founders were rooted in the word of the Lord – that this nation is in fact blessed, and that our heritage is unmistakeably, undeniably Christian. That concept is what gives our founding documents their context. Saying we’re not a Christian nation makes as much sense as saying Israel is not a Jewish nation. It doesn’t mean we’re a theocracy, nor does it mean you have to be a Christian to participate in the fullness of the blessings of this nation, constitutionally speaking….we are a nation of laws, generated, inspired, captured, by God’s law.

    I agree that we are called to bring forth Godly seed – not just through childbirth, but through the lost soul standing right next to me in line at the store, or the post office, sitting by me in church – who is just waiting for a word, for a touch, for an invitation to join us in this incredible journey of following Christ.

    Ressurection, Redemption, Reconciliation, are all within God’s power. I’m going to start with fervent prayer that I am doing what God means for me to. I think sharing our faith in thought, word, and deed, is far more powerful, politically, than all the name calling and blame-laying I can muster (which is a lot, sad to say). It’s the enemy who loves to see us brawling and contentious, not God. Activism, like charity, begins in the home.

    Sorry, Kelly, I think I bloggged on top of your blog, please accept this as a long winded thanks and letter of appreciation for being brave enough to express your positions, wisely and thoughtfully.

  23. Kim M. says:

    Good topic and gives us all a lot to chew on. You are right.

  24. Mrs. Taft says:

    The Cottage Child, I LOVE what you said. Especially the part about reaching the lost…

  25. Bethany Hudson says:

    “I believe that our founders were rooted in the word of the Lord – that this nation is in fact blessed, and that our heritage is unmistakeably, undeniably Christian. That concept is what gives our founding documents their context. Saying we’re not a Christian nation makes as much sense as saying Israel is not a Jewish nation. It doesn’t mean we’re a theocracy, nor does it mean you have to be a Christian to participate in the fullness of the blessings of this nation, constitutionally speaking….we are a nation of laws, generated, inspired, captured, by God’s law.”

    I agree completely with this. However, I also recognize that we are a long way from where we once were. Waves of immigration, Depression years, a trend away from libertarianism and towards government programs and subsidies have caused our country to grow and shift. When we think of England being a Christian nation or of Iran being a Muslim nation, we are speaking of nations that have been founded on these things, have grown and struggled and morphed over time…over centuries! We are still such a young country that, despite what our country was “founded on”, it is hard to see exactly where we are now and where we are going. What little history we have is a clear indication that, if nothing else, we are a country that love progress–in whatever direction!

    As much as I, personally, would rather our country remained firm on its foundations (though, I am very grateful for the Catholic influx of the 19th century, being a Catholic myself), I can’t help but resonate with some of what Cassandra has written. While we may have been founded as a Christian nation, there is not necessarily any indication to claim that we still are. As I said, we are a PROGRESSIVE nation (not saying whether that’s good or bad, just stating the fact), and some of that progress has definitely shifted us onto a more secular foundation than the one we began with. It is hard, then, to claim that we are still a Christian nation, anymore than to say we are an English-speaking nation. Technically, yes, most Americans speak English, but we do not actually have ANY national language. Could it be that, in the same way, we were founded with an underlying root of Christian belief (just as our forefathers also spoke English), but the way our country has grown over the past couple of centuries has left our foundations open to change?

    I’m just thinking out loud now. So, I guess I’ll stop.

    ~Bethany

  26. Anonymous says:

    I am extremely interested in this topic and have been reading all the comments. I have seen websites devoted to proving our nation was founded as a Christian nation as well as websites disproving it. I’ll be interested to hear what you have to say.

    I do have questions… if you’d rather I not continue this discussion, please let me know and I will stop responding.

    What I want to know is how you make a nation Christian. You say that “It’s not a forcing of religion; it’s a recognition that God is supreme, and His laws are perfect for all people, whether you choose that particular religion or not.” So what does this mean in reality? What laws are to be enacted by the government? God’s law is the 10 commandments. Are you saying that the laws of the land should enforce the 10 commandments? All 10? Or are you talking about Moses’ law in Leviticus, Deuteronomy, etc?

    Cassandra

  27. Deanna says:

    Blessed be the NAME of the LORD!
    Today the sun came up.
    God is still on the throne and prayer changes things.

    Our fine country will lose blessings when we turn our back on ISRAEL. God tells us that if we bless Israel, then we will be blessed.

    Yes, God is in control and we will suffer fallout from poor choices we make in our personal lives as well as in public lives. The Politicians and Public Officials that are elected have free will to make ungodly decisions as well as to support ungodly laws.

    I don’t agree that we the people select the presidential candidates that are put on the voting block. In a sense, in my opinion, both presidential parties become puppets to a higher authority than what is publicly announced. It isn’t God they bow down to nor the ones that supposedly voted them into office. It’s a group of bankers that believe in controlled conflict to control the masses. Sound weird?

    As for O b a m a…yes, we need to pray for our officials.

    I just know that while looking you square in the eye a muslim can be comfortable with lying if it fulfills their cause.

  28. Bethany Hudson says:

    Deanna- “I don’t agree that we the people select the presidential candidates that are put on the voting block. In a sense, in my opinion, both presidential parties become puppets to a higher authority than what is publicly announced.” Yes!

    Cassandra- I’m with you. I think it’s confusing (and probably inaccurate) to say we are a Christian nation. Other nations are “Christian” because they have a STATE RELIGION (England is the Anglican Church, for example). We don’t have a state religion. This is what I was trying to say before. We may be founded on Christian principles, but there is nothing in our laws or the construct of our government that DECLARES us as a Christian nation. Does that make sense? So, it’s hard for me to understand our country that way, even though my personal decisions and voting may be based on my faith in Christ.

    ~Bethany

  29. Ancient Christian says:

    I really appreciate all the viewpoints expressed here, including Kelly’s. I recently found your blog when doing a scripture search during my daily devotion.

    It seems no one with my perspective has jumped in yet, so I will:

    I am not only a Christian, but I am a descendant of one of the oldest Christian communities in the history of the religion. Members of my cultural/ethnic group accepted Christ as Lord hundreds of years before Europeans stopped their persecution of the new religion.

    Today, we are persecuted within our country of origin, by the government and our neighbors who are all members of the majority religion–it is a NON-Christian religion.

    Because of this persecution, many of our families fled to other countries to be able to worship freely.

    Members of the older generation who immigrated have been so traumatized by what they suffered, that the thought of an officially Christian country is a balm to them. They have clutched onto this possibility and, in doing so, have forgotten that instituting ANY religion–even the One, True one–as an official religion of the state will cause equal suffering to other people down the line, and ultimately corrupt the name of the Christ we serve.

    Those of us who were raised in the West are adamently opposed to Christianity becoming the religion of state. NO STATE must be linked to a religion, a race, a tribe.

    Humans–especially those who have risen to power–inevitably corrupt, misappropriate, and ultimately destroy the religions they claim to live by. Those of you of European ancestry have already seen this in your own heritages, and you shall see it again.

    When the state is based on one religion, one ethnic group, one tribe–all bloody hell breaks loose in the name of God and family.

    Believe me. I have lived it.

    “But Christianity is different,” you might say. “It is a religion of peace. Jesus does not force people by the sword to accept him; minorities in America can choose not to accept him and they shall be given civil rights.”

    No.

    Christianity may be different, but its followers–humans all–are NOT different. We are no different than the rest of the human race. Eventually, there WILL be members of Congress or a Supreme Court or a President who interpret Christianity as religion-of-state to mean that they can oppress the non-Christians. That they can oppress those Christian denominations and sub-groups that don’t match their own.

    And make no mistake—-they will be able to garner much support for their views, here in our democracy, in which the majority holds special power (the word “majority” is poison to those of us who have been minorities our whole lives. I have been a Christian minority, and trust me–a representative democracy composed of my former neighbors makes a chill rush up my spine).

    It may not happen during our lifetimes–those first Christian rulers of our state might be the faithful and loving people I find here on this blog. The second generation or lifetime’s worth might be, too. But, eventually,
    there will come along “Christian government leaders” of this “Christian nation” who want to find ways to get more power for the “us” and to deny voice to the “them.”

    And other schoolchildren in this country will cry the same tears we ancient Christians cried in our public schools, when we walked into the classroom and symbols of a different faith to ours were displayed, and teachers taught lessons about the majority religion, and the majority schoolkids taunted and beat us because if our minority religion was not listed on the state documents and laws and in the textbooks like THEIRS was, well, then surely the members of this minority religion were available to mock and despise.

    And when all of this happens, non-Christians within the U.S.and around the world will stare in horror at America and cry, “Who is this Jesus that his followers cradle power to themselves and stamp their names on every engine and expression of state power? These CHRISTIANS [no, they will not distinguish between the evildoers and you or I, the loving, Christ-like ones] ar emonsters, and their religion clearly monstrous. We want no part of Jesus.”

    Until you have lived in a state in which the official religion of your country not your own; in which evil government officials and police–who have existed since the beginning of time and will forvermore–persecuted us; in which you were not allowed to build churches or worship on vertain dates or in certain ways….until someone has lived this experience, I believe their argument for “a Christian nation” must be given less weight than the perspectives of those who HAVE so suffered.

    I did not vote for McCain OR Obama, but I can assure you that any president who moves us closer to a secular state equally accepting of all religions and endorsing of NONE is vastly preferable to a Christian one who sets up the religion of the current majority as the national religious standard and thus, who ultimately will bismirch the name of Christianity.

    If that means no Ten Commandments on the school walll, we need to accept that and in fact applaud it. Just imagine that they were the five pillars of Islam or the “Blessed Be” of Wicca. Worse yet, imagine 75 years in the future with a power-hungry and oppressive “Christian-professing” government leader who points to the Ten Commandments on the wall with one hand while using the other to harm people.

    I urge everyone here to heed the warnings rooted in two thousand years of ancient Christian experience, and to listen to the voices of the world’s earliest and most persecuted Churches: If America officially becomes a “Christian nation,” our precious religion and the Holy Name of Jesus WILL be destroyed.

    If the suffering of future generations of non-Christian Americans does not give you pause, perhaps the corruption of our own faith might.

    Salaam, Peace to you, women of God.

  30. the cottage child says:

    I hesitated to reply because my initial comment was so long – I just wanted to clarify my belief with regard to the concept of our nation being a Christian nation.

    Our founders intended the US to be nation with no state religion – and with no ability by the state to impose religion on the people. That is as it should be. I hope I wasn’t unclear on that. As I understand it, the very principle of inclusion without coersion is a Godly one…it’s how Christ makes himself available to us…ever willing to have us, at OUR choice.
    My point is that our founders acknowledged the rights of man being conferred by God, not decided or gifted by other men – As a creation of God, we can’t be stripped of those rights, regardless of circumstances. The values – and I’m not suggesting we live up to them as we should, whole other conversation – upon which the nation was built were indeed Christian values.

    I don’t want to take up anymore of Kelly’s forum, I’ll continue on the cc side later this week.

  31. Mother of Dog says:

    The Founding Fathers were on the whole deists who had a very abstract conception of God, whose view of God was not a God who acted in the world today and manipulated events in a way that actually changed the course of human history. Their view of religion was really a view that stressed ethics and morals rather than a direct divine intervention. That’s an important contradiction. In fact, In God We Trust did not appear on currency until the 1960’s!

    I find it fascinating that we are probably more religious than the society that created the American Revolution. Sixty percent of Americans belong to churches today ,20 percent belonged in 1776. Counting the idea that slaves belonged, it reduces the figure to 10 percent of the society that belonged to any kind of religious organization.

    So this country is NOT founded as a Christian nation in the manner that you’re assuming.

    The idea that our founding fathers were deeply Christian is a very common myth. They were not. And their collective vision of this country was quite clear – freedom of worship. That principle has never faltered and has been upheld.

    When Obama said this was not a Christian nation, he was simply reiterating the truth – that all religions and faith were meant to be welcome here. :) And I for one am very glad that they are!

  32. Mother of Dog says:

    “When the Founders wrote the nation’s Constitution, they specified that “no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.” (Article 6, section 3)

    This provision was radical in its day– giving equal citizenship to believers and non-believers alike. They wanted to ensure that no single religion could make the claim of being the official, national religion, such as England had. Nowhere in the Constitution does it mention religion, except in exclusionary terms. The words “Jesus Christ, Christianity, Bible, and God” are never mentioned in the Constitution– not once.

    The Declaration of Independence gives us important insight into the opinions of the Founding Fathers. Thomas Jefferson wrote that the power of the government is derived from the governed. Up until that time, it was claimed that kings ruled nations by the authority of God. The Declaration was a radical departure from the idea of divine authority.

    The 1796 treaty with Tripoli states that the United States was “in no sense founded on the Christian religion” (see below). This was not an idle statement, meant to satisfy muslims– they believed it and meant it. This treaty was written under the presidency of George Washington and signed under the presidency of John Adams.

    To be clear, this country was founded on principles of the Enlightenment. Some dovetailed, but they are not Christian in this way.

  33. Kim M. says:

    MOD,
    The translation of the Treaty of Tripoli by Barlow has been found faulty, and there is doubt whether Article 11 in the version of the treaty ratified by Congress corresponds to anything of the same purport in the Arabic version.[18]

    In 1931 Hunter Miller completed a commission by the United States government to analyze United States’s treaties and to explain how they function and what they mean in terms of the United States’s legal position in relationship with the rest of the world.[19] According to Hunter Miller’s notes, “the Barlow translation is at best a poor attempt at a paraphrase or summary of the sense of the Arabic” and “Article 11… does not exist at all.”

  34. Bethany Hudson says:

    MOD- I agree that our constitution and government were not founded on Christianity, per se (though we find many Judeo-Christian values to be the backbone of some of our basic values and principles in our systems of law and government). I also agree that there clearly has never been a state religion in the US (for which, I am personally very thankful).

    But, wouldn’t it be fair to say that much of our CULTURE as a country was founded in Christianity? After all, the Pilgrims were the first European settlers here, and Christianity had a very big presence in the founding years of our nation (as we know it…because of course, our nation is originally Native American pagan, if we get into it). Even if some of our founding fathers were Deists, and even if much of their thought was influenced by the secular Enlightenment, we cannot deny the pervasive influence that Christianity also had on their understanding of the world. Even if they were not church memebers themselves, they were greatly affected by the beliefs and values of many of the Protestant leaders and denominations of the day (particularly, Calvinist and Anglican influences). Perhaps this is more what many commenters are referring to?

    ~Bethany

  35. Mother of Dog says:

    I see your point Belinda. I agree in part. But being influenced by Christian principles does not mean that this country was established as a Christian Nation.

    You can say that you disagree with Obama, you can bemoan the lack of morality in America today if you like – but you simply cannot insist that the writers of the Constitution were all about Biblical Christianity. Taint so. There’s evidence Benjamin Franklin was interested in the Occult – fun fact! ;)

  36. Mother of Dog says:

    I’m sorry – Bethany! Not Belinda. :)

  37. Bethany Hudson says:

    MOD- I agree that there is a huge difference between saying we are a “Christian Nation” and saying that we are a nation that was founded (culturally) on Christian values. But, I think sometimes we confuse the semantics, y’know?

    Btw… Yes, Benjamin Franklin was a very interesting character. My husband and I were doing a biographical study of his life a few months ago. Some very sketchy stuff there…

    And, Kelly, I’m sorry if I’m using up too much of your forum space. Please, tell me to stop writing for the day, if you want to :) I just find this all very interesting.

    ~Bethany

  38. Word Warrior says:

    Wow…

    just returned from my Drs. appointment and had a lot of catch-up reading to do!

    I am posting a few quotes from our founders in a new post, and simultaneously contemplating the comments here before I make another one…I want to frame my thoughts before blurting them out–that gets me in trouble some times ;-)

  39. Word Warrior says:

    the cottage child,

    A sincere “you’re welcome” to a thoughtfully written comment…you made some important points…much appreciated.

  40. Mrs. Taft says:

    I’m glad there’s no official “national” religion, and hope there never will be. But there’s a BIG difference between that and using good principles to guide our country, alongside a healthy understanding of the purpose and roots of our country. Incidentally, someone mentioned how England has a state religion, which is true, but they also manage to have freedom of religion. Not saying we should have a state religion or force everyone through the state to be Christians, just pointing out that it’s not dichotomous.

    You don’t have to be a Christian to understand and apply Christian values, and that’s kind of the point…what our nation was founded upon, the intent of the government, are principles that are true and right because they are true and right, not because they are religious. They apply to everyone, not just the followers of a religion. When we stray, bad things happen. History has shown this to be the case, and history is currently repeating itself…

  41. Word Warrior says:

    I’ve had considerable trouble wording what it is I want to say about this issue; seems our terms/interpretations get tangled up and make this debate complicated.

    I have endeavored to find something already written that expresses my belief; one such article is here (copy and paste in your browser to view):

    http://www.believersweb.org/view.cfm?ID=259

    Here is a quote that defines my belief:

    “The concept of a Christian nation is often written off because of misconceptions as to what this means. A Christian nation is not one in which al people in a society are all Christians, just as in an Islamic country, not all people are necessarily Moslems. But in a Christian nation, as our Founders would have defined it, the principles and institutional foundations are Biblically based and the people in general share a Biblical world-view.

    Nor should we confuse the term “Christian Nation” with a “Christian state.” since the word state refers to a political body or the body politic of the nation, the term “Christian state” would mean one in which the government ruled in religious matters through a state church. This would, of course, preclude religious liberty.

    Nevertheless, it is imperative to understand that all laws of a nation are the codification of a presuppositional world-view, i.e., the laws of the Untied States have presupposed form the beginning that the Bible was the foundation of our system. Rev. John Wingate Thornton said:

    “The highest glory of the American Revolution, said John Quincy Adams, was this: it connected in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the PRINCIPLES OF CHRISTIANITY.”

  42. Word Warrior says:

    The other thought in response to those who *doubt* whether we were orgininally established as a Christian nation is that we can’t rewrite what our forefathers said; they implicity used the term “Christian nation” to describe America. It is silly for us to deny fact in its face.

    What stumps us, I think, is the lack of understanding about what such a statement implies…and as the article I just linked to describes, founding a nation upon the principles of a religion does not make that nation a theocracy that persecutes its citizens over their religious choice.

  43. Young Christian Woman says:

    One of the most remarkable things (for its time) about the Law in ancient Israel is that there was the same law for the Israelites and the aliens among them. Not all of these laws are tolerant or acceptable to our sensibilities, but in many places, the law was harsher on foreigners and slaves and more lenient for those who violated their rights. Considering this, it would be blasphemous to call ourselves a Christian nation while depriving those following different gods the liberties we afford ourselves.

    On state religions–
    There shouldn’t be one. However, everyone has a worldview, and these are the products of our beliefs. The problem is when institutions established by the government prohibit their employees from religious belief and expression. Because “religion” and the accompanying worldview have been disallowed in public schools, the worldview taught there is instead secular humanism, which is in itself a religion, though a Godless one. Education cannot happen apart from worldview, so the government cannot be in charge of education.

    I think that, when the country was founded, it was widely understood that, whatever one’s religion, we share a common moral law that allowed us to coexist. Our self-government was a prerequisite for government, and a people incapable of self-government could not be governed.

    Today our jails are overflowing, and mothers kill their children, and fathers abandon their families, and pets have more legal rights than entire classes of humans. The only natural law by which most of society lives is “If it feels good, do it.”

    I don’t have the answer, though.

  44. authenticallyme says:

    Cassandra, I can really appreciate what you said. I am one who never wants to force anything, or override the free will of a persons choices….even religion. I also believe peoples choices are to be respected, as much as I desire mine to be respected. Anyway, I really resonated with your posts. Thank you!

    I also wonder where all the ‘correct information’ can be found on this subject. Many of the founding fathers have questionable acts in their history. It gets confusing.

  45. Olivia says:

    A Christian nation.

    “We are not a Christian nation.”
    ‘are’ being present tense, this statement is true. Christians, do not sacrifice their unborn to the god’s of the market place nor allow the cultural decay which is rampant in today’s society. Christians uphold a moral law, higher than that of their unbelieving neighbors.

    There is no logical ground to prove that the Founding Fathers were not Christians. They were, who else would acknowledge a Supreme Being in such important documents (1)? Yes, some such as Benjamin Franklin were Deist, but even they hold basic Christian principles. But ‘on a whole’ they were devout Christians.

    “The separation of Church and State” (2), which is not, nor ever was the majority opinion of the states at the time of ratification. It was solely the opinion of Thomas Jefferson. The majority opinion was there will be no National Church, we would never have a Church of America, such as the Church of England, which was founded, run and funded by the federal government.
    John Adams for instance, as President, proclaimed “As the safety and prosperity of nations ultimately and essentially depend on the protection and blessing of Almighty God;…”(3) He goes on to proclaim and day of fasting and prayer which everyone in Congress observed and participated, including the Deist.

    Although we are currently living as a pagan nation, we are a post Christian nation. Why is this so important? Because history has proven that any nation that does not use biblical principles will not prosper. The Founding Fathers used the biblical model(4) of government, which is that of representation, a Republic.

    We as Christians know that biblical principles are the only ones that will endure, since we are also Americans we long to see America prosper, therefore we fight for the moral law that will see it through the decay of the culture. The culture is swayed by the tide of public opinion, but laws, Constitutions, hold firm. This our Founding Fathers knew.

    We do hold dear a freedom of religion however, so you do not have to be a Christian to uphold good morals. Just as you don’t have to be a Doctor to understand that eating tablespoons of sugar or living on Twinkies is not good for you and will be your demise.

    1.Constitution, Bill of Rights, Declaration of Independence, Articles of Confederation etc…
    2. Quote from Thomas Jefferson’s letter to the Danbury Baptist Association.
    3. Proclamation of Fasting and Prayer, 1798 John Adams
    4. Exodus 18:17-23, Jethro, Moses’s father-in-law, lays out to Moses the biblical model of government.

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