As I Parent, I am Parented…and a List.
The biggest part of child training, in my opinion, is the consistency it demands. You rarely “conquer” a habit or sin in a single session. (*See below for clarification.) More often, it’s day after day, week after week, year after year of reminding, showing, disciplining and molding those little people.
And hasn’t God parented us the same way? Being “a new creature” doesn’t erase our tendency toward the flesh, does it? That’s why Scripture is full of parental instructions:
“Take every thought captive”…”…and in his law does he meditate day and night”…”…”be transformed by the renewing of your mind”…”crucify the flesh daily”…
Our training is as tedious and slow as the little ones with whom we are so easily irritated. I imagine if God spoke audibly to me, most often I would hear, “How many times have I told you?!”
And isn’t that a beautiful thing about parenting? How the daily sweat and tears we pour into these precious ones so closely parallels the work our Father does with us. Do we not love Him more because the love we have for our children has caused us to identify in a small way with His love for us?
As I parent my children, I am parented. It’s a beautiful thing.
Here are a few things I jotted down that I thought I would read to the children each day as a reminder. But as I wrote them, I realized I need it just as much as they. Thus, the topic of this post 
- Are my rights more important than my relationships?
- If you feel like raising your voice, whisper instead.
- If we can’t love each other here, then we’re hypocrites to try to love others elsewhere.
- Are my words and my tone respectful? Even to the smallest ones?
- A short reflection of gratitude would do a lot to change my attitude.
*When I say “You rarely “conquer” a habit or sin in a single session” it is not to imply that *we* have power over the sin itself–of course the spirit of God in us gives us the power to overcome sin. Sin and death are already conquered as it applies to the work of the cross. We are free from the law of sin, and still, we are plagued with its nature and must continue to bring our flesh into submission to the spirit.
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Tags: birth control, motherhood
birth control, christian living, family/parenting, frugal living/saving money, homeschooling, marriage, motherhood | Word Warrior | 
September 5, 2009 11:13 pm
the law does not conquer a habit or a sin. The Spirit of God can help us conquer, though. Likewise, a parent cannot “conquer” the sin of a child. To think that we can conquer the sin of our children is to fall from the beauty of our life-giving gospel and enter back into the death of the law.
Likewise, God does not view us with irritation but knows our frames. We do well to study the stages of development our children are in and love them accordingingly, just as our God does with us.
I worry for you, sweet sister in Christ. I hear your heart and your longing to do what is right, your longing to be on the right path. You are right that we parent the way that we think God parents us, but I worry that you do not understand the mercy and grace by which God parents you with and I hurt for you when I read that, and I worry, based on various things you have posted about, that you bring this same misunderstanding into the way that you parent.
“Training sessions” do not conquer sin or habits. Our Bible tells us this, over and over, as God’s children failed again and again and again and again to be changed. The law can never ever do what faith by grace can. In the same way, training sessions can never take away sin.
We cannot do that. If we try, we will only teach our children to perform an outward show so that they won’t get hurt, while bitterness and rebellion and anger and fear and hurt grow deep inside…things that will come out later, far down the line, when they no longer have to fear.
Perfect love casts out fear. Training sessions teach dogs to do tricks. The Spirit, He woos the heart and gently leads it. This is only what He can do. We dare not play God with the hearts and the sin of our children, and we dare not utilize something that God had declared a “ministration of condemnation.” If we use what God has said only produces death, then that is exactly what we will produce.
Concerned sister, speaking very softly and with love,
mom of many
momofmany,
Thank you for your concern, but I think you may have misunderstood the post a bit (I did write it very late
I also disagree with some of your theology.
You said, “You are right that we parent the way that we think God parents us”
That was actually not what I was trying to say at all. I think the title throws off my intent. I was saying that “as I parent my children, I become molded in the image of my Father”.
I know “the law” can’t change us (did I say that?)
But I also know that we are to “work out our own salvation” while “God works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure”.
Grace has covered the penalty for our sins. And it is grace working in us that causes us to desire to live righteously (“the spirit is willing”), but because of the sin nature in us, we must “crucify the flesh daily” (“but the flesh is weak”).
Both of these concepts are biblical. You can’t focus on one while ignoring the other (a big problem with what I call the “hyper-grace movement”).
Yes, we are told specifically to “train” our children. NOT for outward show, which is easily understood by children who are being taught the whole of Scripture.
Jesus was so serious about taking practical steps to “train” the flesh, that he says to cut off any body part that causes you to sin.
Without the whole counsel of Scripture, our theology is distorted.
And let me clarify…when I say “You rarely “conquer” a habit or sin in a single session” it is not to imply that *we* have power over the sin itself–of course the spirit of God in us gives us the power to overcome sin.
Sin and death are already conquered as it applies to the work of the cross. We are free from the law of sin, and still, we are plagued with its nature and must continue to bring our flesh into submission to the spirit. This, too, is taught throughout the Scripture.
Sin and death are already conquered as it applies to the work of the cross. We are free from the law of sin, and still, we are plagued with its nature and must continue to bring our flesh into submission to the spirit. This, too, is taught throughout the Scripture.
But child-training is not talking about that. It is talking about bringing the child’s flesh into submission by their flesh. They are being motivated by their flesh to not obey other aspects of their flesh (ie, out of my desire not to experience pain, I will sublimate this aspect of my flesh).
This is not always bad, and yet it is not the same thing as being submitted to the Spirit. That’s what I’m trying to say—-that child training does not and cannot take away sin, nor can it produce spiritual depth. The law cannot bring about life. It can keep a child from running out into the street, yes, and that’s good, but it can’t actually produce spiritual fruit. If child-training is producing patience, it’s not an inward Spirit-born patience but simply the patience of behavioristic training.
Jesus said to cut off the parts of our body as a way to indicate that we simply cannot deal with our sin by the law unless we want to be dismembered. We cannot approach sin and imperfection by means of the law, and, most importantly, the goal of our parenting cannot be to produce perfect behavior. Behavior can be perfect while the heart can be a mucky disaster. And the heart is the part we have no control over. The state of the heart is up to the individual and God and no one else. We have no control there, no matter how much we wish we might.
This concerned me the most, Kelly:
I imagine if God spoke audibly to me, most often I would hear, “How many times have I told you?!”
My heart hurts for you. This is not God’s heart towards you. I think if you could hear God speak audibly, you would be completely overwhelmed by His fullness of real true authentic grace.
momofmany,
There are several different points you made that I want to address.
First, I’m wondering if your response is loaded from you overall feeling toward some popular child-training philosophies (the Pearls?) and is not as much a direct response to this post. Because though I mentioned “discipline”, my main point of “training” here is gentle reminders–reminders to speak softly when my flesh wants to yell. I’m not talking about walking around spatting the child for every wrong habit, as I think you’re imagining. We discipline for disobedience, but proper child training mostly consists of reminding and helping children develop habits of self-control. And not matter how you paint it, this is a good and necessary part of parenting. “A child left to himself brings his mother shame”.
It is possible and necessary to form good habits while cultivating a genuine spirit of love that comes from God. If you’re suggesting that is wrong to help children form good habits then I firmly disagree.
The line that concerned you was meant to be a little tongue-in-cheek, reflective of what parents say so much to their children. It was also meant to remind us that yes, God does tell us over and over through His Word and sometimes we are too stubborn to listen.
It concerns me when I hear comments like these that have taken the precious grace and gospel and distorted it to the point that it requires us to ignore a large part of the Bible (or re-interpret it to fit our theology).
God’s grace frees us; it does not alleviate our personal responsiblity to strive toward holiness. I have lots of verses, but I don’t think they would be effective in this discussion.
(“Jesus said to cut off the parts of our body as a way to indicate that we simply cannot deal with our sin by the law unless we want to be dismembered”)…No, Jesus said, “If your hand causes you to sin cut it off”. Where do you get your new interpretation from that? The interpretation is, “do what you have to to prevent sin from dominating your life”.) This is an example of what I’m saying…if we’re not willing to see the truth of Scripture, why discuss it at all?
Prov. 22:6
Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
Great post!
By the way… I love your new background!
Thank you for your post! I need to remind myself so often when I say things to my children that I need to look in the mirror! I really believe it is so important to teach our children they are a creation of God and they have free will but when we step outside of the limits He has for us, we will be in turmoil! The way to teach them when they are young, is to teach them OUR boundries as their parents! I also believe we need to show them in The Word where certain beliefs come from. Such as lying, the way we dress and to love our neighbors as ourselves among many others! My goal is to allow God to parent me so I can effectively parent my beautiful arrows!
Thank you for the gentle reminder! Blessings to you as you continue to raise your beautiful blessings in the way they should go, so when they are old they will not depart depart from it!:)
Heather
Kim,
Thanks–so far my husband votes that it’s too masculine
I probably change it up a few more times before I’m satisfied. *sigh*
momofmany~
While you have articulated why disagree with WW (kelly’s) “training” philosphy/theology/etc, you have not given an “alternative” based upon your own philosophy/theology. I am curious to know what you would do to “train up a child?” In your “grace-based” parenting model, how does a child learn to conquer sin and bring his flesh into obedience with God’s Word? Or, is this even necesarry (in you view)? You also state:
“If child-training is producing patience, it’s not an inward Spirit-born patience but simply the patience of behavioristic training.”
You also state:
“And the heart is the part we have no control over. The state of the heart is up to the individual and God and no one else. We have no control there, no matter how much we wish we might.”
So, how would you go about leading your children towards the fruit of “patience” if not through “child-training?”
I’m not defending Kelly’s position (she has accopmlished that herself), but your comments leave us with alot of abstract ideas and no practicality. I’m just asking for some of the latter based on the philosphy/theology/commentary you have presented.
“Because though I mentioned “discipline”, my main point of “training” here is gentle reminders–reminders to speak softly when my flesh wants to yell. I’m not talking about walking around spatting the child for every wrong habit, as I think you’re imagining. We discipline for disobedience, but proper child training mostly consists of reminding and helping children develop habits of self-control.”
That is wonderful.
“It concerns me when I hear comments like these that have taken the precious grace and gospel and distorted it to the point that it requires us to ignore a large part of the Bible (or re-interpret it to fit our theology).”
How am I distorting the gospel and ignoring a large part of the Bible? Truly, I don’t understand what you mean. I love the Bible and take it very seriously. I also love the gospel and strive to live it out in my daily life.
“Where do you get your new interpretation from that? The interpretation is, “do what you have to to prevent sin from dominating your life”.”
My interpretation is not new. It is a very common and orthodox one. Your interpretation, that you gave above in the quote, is another common one. It is concerning to me that right after that, you accuse me of being “not willing to see the truth of Scripture,” yet you just said you have an interpretation…
Do you believe that your interpretation is the truth of Scripture and anyone who differs is not being willing to see the truth of Scripture? That seems like a pretty big leap, and kind of scary too, to put your interpretation on par with Scripture. Maybe you didn’t mean to do that. It just seemed strange to me and I don’t understand why you would jump to such a leap.
My interpretation (that we cannot fight sin with the Law) is held by many conservative scholars and preachers, many who believe that Matthew was written primarily for the Jews and therefore has a special emphasis on the Law, trying to show the Jews that the Law could not ever save them (since you bring up the Pearls, Michael Pearl agrees with this interpretation too – smile). I think that my interpretation is also well backed up by many passages in Scripture. It is offensive to me that you said I am not willing to hold to the truth of Scripture, but perhaps I wasn’t understanding you correctly.
Your interpretation, “do what you have to do,” means figuratively, not literally, right? Because before, you seemed to me to be saying it should be taken literally, but now I’m thinking I’m hearing you say it’s figurative. Okay, I guess I’m confused…
“Jesus was so serious about taking practical steps to “train” the flesh, that he says to cut off any body part that causes you to sin.”
You said,
“God’s grace frees us; it does not alleviate our personal responsiblity to strive toward holiness.”
I completely concur. My main point is that Scripture is very clear that if we are striving in the flesh, we will fail and we will fail and we will fail, and/or we will become self-righteous (and therefore fail and fail and fail). Scripture is also very clear that our holiness comes from walking in the Spirit.
If we are saved by the Spirit through faith, then we are also sanctified by the Spirit through faith. (We are not saved by faith and sanctified by works…as popular as that teaching may be, it is not of Scripture).
…
Amy Jo, I’m not sure what you are talking about when you say grace-based model, and I’m thinking, based on your comment, that you have a much different idea in your mind than what I think. I’m pretty big on helping my kids learn good manners and treating others with kindness and all that jazz. In no way did I mean to imply that we shouldn’t be helping our children become people that are nice to be around.
You said,
“In your “grace-based” parenting model, how does a child learn to conquer sin and bring his flesh into obedience with God’s Word? Or, is this even necesarry…”
This is the heart of what I am trying to say, and I know it seems like no big deal, but I think it’s a huge deal.
Our children cannot learn to conquer their sin, and neither can we, by our own strength. No one could conquer their own sin. Not even the best Israelite law-keeper could ever ever ever master their own sin.
NO ONE can bring their flesh into obedience with God’s word, because the flesh cannot ever be brought into obedience with God’s word. Scripture says that the flesh will always be the flesh.
Paul says in Galatians 2:20, speaking as a practically perfect Israelite, that he only discovered how to fully serve God when he realized he died with Christ and that Christ now lived in him. This is not a behavioral change. This change did not occur because Paul was zealous for righteousness (though he was, far more than you or I could ever hope to be!). It occured because Paul discovered, deeply, the power of the grace of God.
And that is something that no amount of child training can ever do. (It is something that no amount of zealous striving towards holiness can do, as Paul testifies of repeatedly). Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, says the Lord. It is only by Him.
All we can affect is the outside behaviors of our child through patient teaching, and model a Spirit-led life in our homes hoping that we show them the goodness of belonging to God. That’s hard enough to do right there—how silly for us to take on trying to make our children lead a Spirit-led life (as if anyone can “make” anyone else do that in the first place).
Only God can teach our child how to truly conquer sin, and only God can teach our child how to walk by the Spirit and not by the flesh. We do not have the power, no human being has the power, to do those things for another human being, otherwise our gospel is centered on the power of human strength. It is the Spirit who does those things, in us and in our children. All we do is help create an environment conduscive to the Spirit’s work. I can help create that environment by esteeming those things that the Spirit esteems, by being patient, by being loving, by being kind, by being respectful, by being tender-hearted and forgiving…and by encouraging those things in my children and encouraging them to use their personal power wisely, things like that that tkae a million different practical forms.
But though I teach my children to be patient, it’s not the same thing as the Spirit’s fruit of patience. One is a fruit of flesh-training, and the other is so much better, deeper, greater, because it’s the fruit of the Spirit’s gentle teaching in the heart of my child. I do my part by helping my child be self-controlled, but I know that my part is only the outward part, and I pray for God to do His work on the inward part, something no amount of cajoling or manipulating or preaching on my part can do. Though I wish I could have that kind of control sometimes, I’m glad that it is God’s work there and God’s alone. Otherwise I would steal all the glory and it would never be nearly as beautiful as it is when our God gets ahold of a heart.
I think our parenting should model the gospel, and the gospel tells us that only God can get into the heart and truly affect change…and that the law can’t. The gospel also never looks at us and says things like, “How many times do I have to tell you…” That is a very shaming demeaning way to talk…it’s tempting and it’s right on the tip of my tongue far to often, but it isn’t speech that comes from the Cross, but speech that comes from the Fall.
It isn’t constructive. It isn’t the way that God talks to us. It is blaming and it’s purpose is to shame, to condemn. It might be the way we talk to each other or to our children, but it’s not reflective of the Spirit or the way He leads us.
Momofmany-
“I do my part by helping my child be self-controlled, but I know that my part is only the outward part, and I pray for God to do His work on the inward part, something no amount of cajoling or manipulating or preaching on my part can do.”
I completely agree with this. Only the Spirit of God can lead and and change the heart of a child — or anyone. However, I also believe that God does call us as parents to teach our children (train) self-control, and other virtures that ultimately we pray will be the “fruits” of a Spirit-filled life. Until that child confesses Christ, and the Spirit indwells to begin that work in him, it is our job to demonstrate and admonish that child towards those virtures — albeit they are an outward response to training. I believe that is why God calls it training. Until the Spirit of God manifests these fruits/virtues in the child, the child becomes aware of those virtues of the Spirit, and ultimately comes to realize that in his own flesh, he is incapable of living them out. It is this “training” towards righteousness that ultimately allows the child to see his NEED for the Savior and the Spirit that will manifest these in him.
The LAW is not evil. It has a purpose:
“Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” Romans 7:7
“Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.” Galatians 3:24
“The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul” Psalm 19:7
The LAW does NOT save us, but the LAW does demonstrate our NEED for a Savior. Thus, the reason it was given. When we hold out the “law” with regards to behavior to our children, it allows them to realize their NEED for a Savior.
Also, with regard to this:
“The gospel also never looks at us and says things like, “How many times do I have to tell you…”
I’d ask you to consider the words, and HEART of God, when he spoke these words to His children:
“Then the LORD said to Moses, “How long will you refuse to keep my commands and my instructions?” Exodus 16:28
“How long, O men, will you turn my glory into shame ? How long will you love delusions and seek false gods ? Selah” Psalm 4:2
“O Jerusalem, wash the evil from your heart and be saved. How long will you harbor wicked thoughts?” Jerimiah 4:14
“O unbelieving and perverse generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you?” Matthew 17:17
I’m pretty sure, by estimation, the “how long…” statements here can be equated to “how many times….” It’s not a condemning spirit of God (or the Law) that makes these statments, but a persistant, heart-longing of a Parent for a child to grasp the character of God and relent! It’s because of God’s great LOVE for us (not condemnation) that He longs for us to just listen and obey (How long….how many times, child?)
One last question for you, please. In all genuineness. You state:
“Scripture is also very clear that our holiness comes from walking in the Spirit.”
How, by your understanding of the Scriptures, does one “walk in the Spirit” daily? In practical terms.
May I laughingly suggest that I notice that you did some cherry-picking with the law verses you chose to quote…
2 Cor. 3 is a powerful passage to read in regards to the law. It says that Christians are no longer under the law. It also says that while the law is holy, just and good, it produces condemnation and death. Christ, as Romans 8 specifically says, does not produce condemnation: in Him, there is no condemnation. In the law, there is condemnation.
“For if the operation of the law, producing punishment, had its glory, how much greater will be the operation of the Spirit causing righteousness?” 1 Cor. 3:9
That whole chapter is extremely important reading for anyone who thinks that law-keeping is an important part of parenting. You said that we have to hold the Law up for our children so that they will see their need for a Savior, but I disagree. That’s a major theme of the NT, actually, the new-Christian Jews trying to make the new-Christian Greeks obey the Law too, saying that the Law is still needful. Paul made it very clear that that was a big no-no.
The new-Christian Greeks were able to see their need for a Savior perfectly fine, without any background in living under the condemnation of the Law. The book of Romans describes this too, describing how those under the Law and those outside of the Law are all in need of a Messiah, how our very hearts testify to this whether we grew up Jewish or otherwise .
So if the Law is not required or necessary, and if we have ample Scripture testifying to the Law bringing condemnation and death, then… why put our precious lambs under it’s heavy load?
No one can say that the law is not holy. You mentioned that I think the law if evil, but I never said such a thing. The law is holy, just and good. But the Law is a load that cannot be born by human backs without bringing the heavy oppressive crushing of shame and condemenation.
The whole point of the gospel is that we can’t be saved by the law, that righteousness cannot come by the law. Righteousness cannot come from the efforts of humans working hard to produce righteousness. Holiness cannot come from the efforts of humans working hard to produce holiness.
For some reason, we get this theoretically, but then raise our children as if the opposite is true, thinking we will produce righteousness and holiness through human effort… when our gospel says it will NEVER ever come that way.
It’s really a serious thing. It’s what whole epistles of the NT were written to deal with. We spit on the death of Christ when we say we can produce righteousness, when we say we can cure sin, train sin out of people (again, see Galatians). If we could, then Christ never should have bothered to die. If we could do it ourselves, there is no need for Him.
The Spirit gives life. God’s word says that the letter (the law) brings death. That’s all. I try to hold that truth close to me as I parent my brood.
As for shaming language, we can agree to disagree, but… I know that shaming language doesn’t motivate me (and/or when it does motivate me, it does so for all the wrong reasons). It just hurts. It makes me feel small. It makes me feel hopeless.
I also know that shaming language is as close to my lips as the breath I breathe. On the other hand, I know that the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience… And when I am a patient mommy, I do not say things like, “How many times have I told you???”
God can say it, because when HE says it, He’s generally spent a minimum of a few centuries trying to work with His children! But I can’t say it, because when I want to say it, it’s usually got everything to do with me not having compassion or patience with young brains that I am expecting to operate with adult capabilities, and that’s just plain not fair of me. When I say things like, “How many times do I have to tell you,” the underlying attitude there is usually along the lines of, “I’m better than you, because you forget but I remember, so why can’t you measure up, what’s wrong with you???”
How much better, and so much more filled with the Spirit, it is to say, “Hon, you keep forgetting ___. This is starting to frustrate me. Can you think of something I can do or you can do (or we can do) to help you remember better?”
God is always offering to help us in our weakness. I’m all for helping my kids in their weaknesses, too. Most of the time we come up with solutions together that we both agree will be helpful, and they get the added bonus of learning how to solve problems and tie strings of relationship with mom. That’s not what happens when I fuss, “How many times have I told you…” That just shames them, belittles them, sets us up as adversaries. We’re not adversaries. We’re on the same team. Part of being on the same team means that I must speak as respectfully to them as I want them to speak to me.
This is partly what I meant when I said that it’s all I can do to walk in the Spirit myself. How silly for me to think I can make my kids walk in the Spirit!
Speaking of walking in the Spirit, I think it’s just what the Bible describes it to be in Galatians 5. It’s living by His nature, hopefully in greater and greater measures as I grow in Him, instead of in my fleshly nature.
I know I am walking in the Spirit when my life displays His fruit, also described in Galatians 5. It’s pretty easy for me to tell when I’m not walking in the Spirit. There won’t be love, there won’t be joy, there won’t be patience, there won’t be self-control. It doesn’t take a brain surgeon for me to see when I’m off, but it sometimes does take Hurculean doses of self-control to reign in my grumpiness some days…. Lots of kids means lots of active parenting (translation: WORK) and somedays I just want to crawl back under the covers.
Walking in the Spirit isn’t for wimps.
momofmany,
I don’t want to keep going in circles so I’ll try to close this discussion.
I think we probably agree on much more than is evident, although I feel as if you have tried to “read in” to the post too much. I am a parent who parents with love and tenderness on a good day, not so much on a bad day. I call that my sinfulness. I know I am being sanctified and of course I am in awe of God’s unfathomable grace and love for me (he saved me out of a very visible, deep and ugly pit of sin.)
I do not practice “shaming” my children nor do I uphold a model of training the flesh apart from expecting God’s spirit to lead and guide them.
We do disagree on some basic theology, and therefore will continue to disagree on some principles of child training. But don’t presume that we here are “mean, shaming parents”, just because we still quote from the Old Testament and believe that God is the same yesterday, today and forever.
Wonderful and articulate dissertation on your viewpoint. We will, however, have to agree to disagree.
And I did not “cherry-pick” those Scriptures. I guess I could have said, “read the New Testament in context”, but instead I chose to offer the best Scriptures, in context, to express the purpose of the Law.
I can see that our theology on this topic differs enough that we will not come to a “happy meeting place,” but I will offer this:
Your comment: “That’s a major theme of the NT, actually, the new-Christian Jews trying to make the new-Christian Greeks obey the Law too, saying that the Law is still needful. Paul made it very clear that that was a big no-no.”
Paul did not beleive that OBSERVING and KEEPING the law was needful for salvation — or sanctification for that matter. Neither do I. However, Paul, himself, recognized the importance of the LAW to lead one to salvation. On this point, I will not relent. GOD had a purpose for instituting the LAW. It served, and continues to serve it’s purpose.
And as for New Testament Greeks who saw their need without “living under the condemnation of the law”: study the manner in which the apostles and New Testament Beleivers offered the Gospel to the Greeks. The LAW is always included, because the first missionaries were Jews. Converted Jews. Who understood the purpose of the LAW. While the Greeks never lived under the ordinances of the LAW, it was their recognition before a HOLY GOD that they had trespassed HIS LAW that enabled them to see their NEED for a Savior.
AND, even if the Jewish converts had not articulated the purpose of the Law to the Greeks, Paul still holds them accountable to the LAW:
“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.” Romans 2:14-16
There is no way around the purpose of the Law. It does not discount grace. It leads us to Grace. If we do not recognize our sin before God, we have no need for Grace. The Law shows us our sin before God. Repentance of that sin places us under Grace.
You say: “So if the Law is not required or necessary, and if we have ample Scripture testifying to the Law bringing condemnation and death”…..
The LAW IS required and necessary. It serves a purpose. God’s sovereign purpose. If it didn’t, He would not have instituted it. And you even state its purpose: to bring condemnation and death to those who are still under it. Those not living under Grace. And if our lambs have NOT confessed Christ, they are under the LAW. Not Grace. Chidlren are not born under grace. (Perhaps this is the crux of our diagreement) They are born under the law. Sinners. Born under condemnation and death. I, for one, want the LAW to serve its purpose in the life of my chidlren: to show them their need for a Savior. To be their “schoolmaster” to lead them to Jesus, as Paul put it.
So, again, as I parent, I do not brow-beat my children with the law, however, I do hold up the standards of the Law: Don’t lie. Don’t steal. Don’t covet. Don’t speak God’s name in vain. And so on. This is God’s Law. Some may call this good manners. Call it what you want. It is the LAW. And someday I pray that my children will realize that they have trespassed this Law, that they are condemned, and they will cry out for the Savior. THEN, and only then, will they be under Grace, to have the Holy Spirit work righteousness in their lives; sanctification to completion.
I think on this point we agree: You cannot be saved by observing the law. Nor can you be made righteous by observing the law. Very important points indeed.
However, the Law does serve a purpose, and with regards to child “training”, I see it as a critical purpose. An eternal purpose.
And one last thought: your answer to my question about how you practically live out walking in the Spirit was, forgive me, somewhat vague. However, I did garner this one small point that helps me understand:
“It doesn’t take a brain surgeon for me to see when I’m off, but it sometimes does take Hurculean doses of self-control to reign in my grumpiness some days….WORK….Walking in the Spirit isn’t for wimps.”
I completely understand this statment! I live it, too. I just want to point out, though, that here you have confessed to deliberately making a human (Herculean, okay..half-human) effort to aspire to self-control. I point this out, becuase while the Spirit does manifest the “fruit” of self-control in a Believer’s life, that does not mean that we never have to make a conscieous effort to CHOOSE self-control. Human effort. Each deliberate act of obedience by human choice Lords over our life to the control of the Spirit even more. So, I guess my point is that there is still a rquirement of obedience — human choice — in the Spirit-filled life. It’s not like we roll out of bed and just tootle through the day with no personal choice towards obedience and end up with a Spirit-filled, walking in the Sprit life.
Of course, one could then ask, “Well, to what are we to be obedient?” But, I guess that just takes us back to the beginning, where I know we don’t agree.
And Kelly, I’m sorry we have hijacked this thread. I really, really, did not intend on responding again, but I beleive that this is a very important doctrine, and I want those who read to have a clear vantage point of both “sides.”
You don’t want me to presume. That’s fair. But you presume right back by insinuating that you believe in the God who is the same, but that I don’t. It’s just not right. Please treat me with the same respect you want me to treat you with. I apologize for presuming and I am so glad to read that I may not being understanding some of your harsher statements the way that you actually intended them. Thank you for clarifying. I wish in return you would not be harsh towards commenters who disagree with you by assuming and presuming things about them and their relationship with God, so quick to cast such sweeping judgements. I will do the same. I certainly have room for growth.
Amy Jo,
You did a great job of articulating what I believe. It is a balanced view of law and grace that is required. If you haven’t seen that youtube video by Voddie Bacham called “Brokenness”, I beg you to watch it. He addresses this dire need for us to be broken over our sin and he does a great job balancing that with the tremendous, undeserved grace that saved us.
momofmany,
My apologies for any presumptions as well. I thought I was responding only to actual things you said, and from that I gleaned that you were of the *newer* camp of theology that eradicates our need to understand our sin and actually be sorry about it–what I believe is a distorted understanding of grace and what Christ did for us. If that’s not the case, I’m sorry. But if and when I see what I believe to be hints of a false teaching, I feel responsible here (because it’s my blog) to correct it as I see it.
Obviously, those who differ in their theology will see ME as the false teacher. That’s where I would suggest they start a blog of their own to speak out about their convictions. I can’t relent my understanding of truth just because others disagree. I am certainly OPEN to rethinking areas (I pray constantly for God to enlighten my heart and show me where I am wrong), but as I understand truth, I must defend it.
I certainly want to display grace to you and the readers here, without being harsh, but I think sometimes just speaking what I believe is truthful, if it opposes what others believe, by default, it will feel harsh. Doing the best I can…
Kelly,
Thanks for the point to VB’s video. I will be viewing it soon.
Just one last, final, thought (I promise):
Jesus said: If you love me, keep my commandments. (John 14:15) Jesus also summed up the whole of the Law and the Prophets into these two commandments: Love God (with ALL your heart, soul, mind, strength) and Love your neighbor as yourself. Martin Luther said: Love God and do whatever you want.
For some, that quote may be a stumbling block becuase it appears to be license to live an uncontrolled, unchecked life. But…..it is FAR from that. It sums up what Jesus said.
IF we really LOVE God, we WILL keep HIS commandments. AND we will not want to do anything to disappoint or dishonor Him.
This call to obedience is out of LOVE for God who chose to redeem us! Because we are so very grateful to God for the sacrifice He made by sending Christ to die for sinners, for us, we CHOOSE to obey His commandments. Becuase of our Love. Our respect. Our gratitutde. OH….our gratitude.
This is what Jesus meant. This is what Luther meant.
This is why we choose obedience. This is how the Law (summed up by Jesus) can be a tool to guide us to Jesus’ commandment. Again, not becuase we believe it saves or sanctifies. But because we want to love, honor, and show gratitude to our loving Savior and Lord.
Amy Jo,
I agree 100% and as you said, think this IS such an important thing to get. I’m afraid there are some who are teaching an “off-balanced” view of grace and bringing great harm to the body of Christ. I pray we would understand the whole of Scripture, not afraid to embrace it all, even when it appears to contradict. God’s Word does not contradict, it just requires us to trust Him, often outside our ability to rationalize.
I like this post. Often times I catch myself saying something to my daughter and God gives me enlightenment of how that same statement is true to me, too. Ouch. But to those He loves, He also disciplines. I am grateful He will never give up on me. And what a reminder to me: that as gentle as the Lord is with me, I need to be to His daughter whom He gave over to me (and hubby too).
Thank you all for your comments. Word Warrior, although I agreed with everything else you said, I have to beg you to retract your statement about others starting their own blog. If you found error on her webstite, you would be compelled to comment- as she did.
Honestly, I have found the whole thread to be quite enlightening and because of the current justification contoversy, this is important to understand, since it affects every aspect of our lives- including the raising of our children
Doctrine is SO important. We must make sure that we are always speaking His words- not our own.
Mary Jo,
Yes, I guess you’re right. I don’t have the time to visit blogs very often, so I didn’t really think about that point. My comment may have been leaning more towards those commenters (non momofmany) who constantly come and try to change my mind about my worldview or something. That is weird to me. I wonder why they don’t start a blog.
But, you make a good point.