Hurting Marriages: When My Hand is on Fire
“Iam reminded on every side of the attack of Satan on Christian marriages. Whether it’s a personal encounter or an email I receive, it seems lately to be a constant subject that grieves me intensely.
I lie awake at night.
And I’m done with the “spiritually-politically correct” jargon that does nothing in the way of healing but instead, is part of the destruction of these covenant bonds.
We’re different–men and women. Deal with it. And one day you may glory in it. We need different things, we see life through different lenses and we respond differently to circumstances.
I am noticing a tragic dearth of biblical counseling. Where are the men and women of God who know what the Scripture says and are willing to snatch these marriages out of the fire with it?
Where are the “bodies” of believers who know the pain of having one of its members maimed? If my hand is on fire I don’t pretend it’s not! It is in my best interest to “meddle” with it!
Men need to feel like men, and women need to feel like women, and this is the basic formula for a thriving marriage (that’s modern for what is already written in Scripture). Let’s define that and start there, and work it out practically.
How do I make my husband feel like a man? Primarily, I admire him. (“Wives, respect your husbands.”) It’s not about his ego. It’s about his innate desire to feel important to at least one person. Can I do that for him?
Women need to feel secure, for this is how we spell “love”. (“Husbands, love your wives as yourself.”,,,and what is self-love but self-preservation, i.e. “safety”.) That encompasses a lot in a marriage, and I can’t speak to men here really, so I’ll leave it at that.
And paradoxically, the two very different people must no longer think of themselves as separate, for they are now one. Forgiveness is not optional. Working things out is not optional. Divorce is not an option. (Last resort in cases of infidelity, maybe? But then, what of remarriage?) Squirming out of difficulties…not an option.
Could I encourage you–you couples with strong marriages, to take another couple under your wing and give them truth…love them enough to say what needs to be said.
Christian marriage is an extension of our relationship with Christ. Do we love Him enough to help the hurting marriages around us, to run to the rescue of our wounded extensions?
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Uncategorized | Word Warrior | 
November 10, 2009 8:17 am
A hearty Amen Kelly!
I was so grieved when I heard Irwin Lutzer say that more marriages are coming apart than coming together.
I would also like to second your motion for those with strong marriages to come alongside those that are struggling. Even a marriage that seems to be “beyond the end” can be saved by our miracle working God! We were privileged to see this happen in our neighborhood.
Be willing to listen, but keep taking them back to the all-powerful Word of God. Teach them about benevolent love. Keep directing them back to what they can do to yield to God and away from what they want their spouse to change….and pray, pray, pray!
Christian marriage is an extension of our relationship with Christ.
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Hm. I’ve been contemplating how Christian marriage is meant to be a reflection of Christ’s relationship with His bride (the ever emotional, fickle, often rebellious “weaker vessel”) that He created so that He could lavish “her” with His tender yet fiercely jealous love……
I’m interested in reading what you write on this subject.
Heather,
Oh I think if we could begin to understand this picture (by “we” I mean myself), not only the weight of the covenant we make but the responsibility to act in that covenant as Christ has asked us so that His gospel can be preached through our marriages…this is the agony of my heart when I see the brokenness around me. It’s not just an isolated marriage falling apart, but, as I said in the post, members of one body being maimed until I almost picture this crippled figure, black and blue, and hardly recognizable where there is supposed to be a radiant bride.
Perhaps I am not seeing it clearly; perhaps the radiant bride can only be visible at His appearing; my emotions are just very raw right now and I’m trying to sort it all out.
I agree. This morning God convicted me that I was not praying enough for our neighbors who have sought, then rejected, my council on this very topic. One woman left physically, the other emotionally. They didn’t like the council: you don’t have a “right” to be happy. You have a right to stick to your commitments, honor your vows and the hearts of your children. I prayed hard at first, but over time relented. I am on fire again to pray for complete reconciliation. First with God, then each other!
Even at the risk of being rejected, we Christians MUST speak to what is right. The council these women were getting was numerous and horrid. Thus the results. I was one among the many and was drowned out by selfishness. (not condemning, just saying.)
But it was worth it to be obedient to Christ! May He still receive His glory!
Kelly (WW)
I’m not going to presume to instruct or guess at the situation. But God has been showing me some amazing things about His plan and why marriage and family is an instrumental part of life on this planet (and I’m beginning to see WHY satan has specifically attacked the “traditional” family so mercilessly).
Marriage isn’t just a meaningless something that we ‘do’ because “God said so”. It’s meant to be a picture that reminds us of God’s love for us.
If you’re interested in following along, the posts I already have are here:
http://onmysoap-box.blogspot.com/2009/11/why-love.html
http://onmysoap-box.blogspot.com/2009/11/slow-learner-contemplates-repentance.html
http://onmysoap-box.blogspot.com/2009/11/slow-learner-in-remedial-reading-room.html
I think it is easier to “fix” the broken marriage problem when we can more clearly see what the big picture is and what is really at the root of the rotten fruit that we see.
I do agree.
I know though for me, sometimes the advice or counsel I was given was given like band-aid answers. You really do need someone who is willing to listen, and try to understand the dynamics of your individual marriage, and see beyond the obvious, or superficial. I am not requesting a pity party, or answers that tickle my ear, but when it comes to things like abuse, adultery, abandonment, verbal, spirtual, or emotioanl abuse, pornography usage, hiding things, gambling, drinking, overspending, watching inanpropriate TV shows with gore, or watchign every football game, or every soap opera…..these things are not easy fixes with a few scriptures, and then the cousnelors get frustrated when it doesnt work according to their timeline. I know friends of mine, myself included, who have had enough of the biblical bandaids, and then the counselors walk away wehn not obeyed, or when they feel enough time has passed for warranted change. I encourage anyone who uses those tactics to kindly step aside and dont offer any help…because it heaps more rejection and problems onto the heap than were there to begin with.
That being said, yes, I do think people in general have taken more of an “it’s ok” stance when dealing with divorce, or whatnot. But seriously, when i hear some of the stories-and there are NOT just a ‘few’- i do sometimes feel the chidlren are better off away from the daily chaos, havoc, and abuse. Not better off really, but bad marriages have wreaked havoc and neurosis on children, but just becasue the couple stayed together, it is looked upon as ‘the better alternative’ to divorce.
Remarriage, whole other story.
Kelly, on another topic, I wonder what your thoughts are on this:
I do not think it is completely right to place the responsibility on a spouse to be able to ‘make” the wife or husband feel like a woman or a man. Doesnt God need to do that? Or have done that? I know in my talks and observations with people, oftentimes the wife or husband expects the spouse to be a fix-all or heal-all for their wants, desires, issues, and hurts. it just is not possible, nor it is healthy. Would not true love dictate part of our refusal to be The One who fills that lacking spouse’s void? Until one can surrender over to God all their needs, can they really stop tapping out their spouse for those things. I know characteristically it is nowhere near evil to do a lot for our spouse, or support their every situation. I am just proposing that today, people expect way too much from one person in their life. We are not to be that super-dependent on one another, but inter-dependent. I see wives and husbands get exhausted by trying to fulfill each other, or give into one another-sometimes things that should NOT be given into!!??
oh
my first post did not go through, or got lost 
I am surrounded by divorces now. it was such a rare event when I was young maybe 4 in my whole large extended family , now since I have been married 15 years we’ve seen 10 divorces in 7 of our siblings. Not to mention all the friends and neighbors . My children don’t even bat an eye at disapearing Aunts, Uncles ,new cousins coming in and old cousins gone for good.Such things still feel sad and shocking from childhood, to me. I wonder that even though my husband and I present a stable committed view of marriage to our children the fact that they so easily see family gone for good without a thought how can that not have an influence on them. Two brothers divorced this year. To me it is like a death yet people say oh it is just their choice it shouldn’t effect you at all. But it does ,my heart is broken.
Momentary Marriage – A Parable of Permanence by John Piper… GREAT book about what marriage is meant to be through the lense of Scripture.
I am always telling my kids that it does not matter what everyone else is doing – what are YOU doing?
I believe that is how it is in marriage. What if your husband doesn’t love you? What if he doesn’t do what is right? Does that mean you don’t respect him? That you have an excuse now? No. We obey the scriptures because we obey the Lord. Even Jesus said, …”But that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do.” John 14:31
Our marriages are falling apart because we are living to please ourselves and not our spouse…ESPECIALLY when they are not meeting our needs. The thing is, our needs are not met by a man. The Lord is our satisfaction. The Lord is our provider. The Lord is our hiding place.
Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves Phil 2:3
Can we do this with our husbands? That is the only thing that can save a marriage sometimes. Trust me, I know. Painful? yes, The truth? yes
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness – not love from your husband, not perfect kids, and all these things shall be added unto you. Wives, delight thyself also in the Lord; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.
O.K., I’m done…can you tell this hits close to home?
Mrs. Santos–Amen.
There is no amount of admiration that will make an abusive man feel admired enough. These kinds of men are sick (as are abusive women). You can’t fix them with principles or with doing things a certain way. They will destroy all who are near them. A nice couple with a great marriage can’t fix a marriage where one of the members is mentally sick, just as a healthy couple can’t fix another marriage where the wife has cancer with three months to live. There are some things we cannot fix.
Our God is awesome. Miracles do happen. But we can’t *plan* on them happening. We gratefully accept them when they do, but when God doesn’t provide a miracle, we must be repsonsible with the facts that we have and do the best possible thing. Biblical counseling programs need to realize just how terribly terribly destructive abuse is on women and on all the little children who are learning what marriage means, who are having their little hearts destroyed by an abusive parent. In my experience, much like authenticallyme, the church-based counseling just wanted band-aids. They were upset when the bandaids didn’t work, and then used shaming and blaming techniques to try and force the bandaids to work (not really so different from the abusive spouse, actually). They demanded that I continue living in a horribly abusive situation and count on God for a miracle. They said if I wouldn’t, that I was being faithless. In other words, even though my husband’s abuse was absolutely horrendous, it was all my fault if our marriage broke apart. ???
It is terrible, as you said, Kelly, to see hurting marriages, hurting families. It really is terrible to have to look at a family being destroyed by abuse and admit that there may not be a book or a technique that can fix it. It is heart-breaking. I know that first hand. It took me a long time to come to that place, and it wans’t until the destruction took quite a toll before I was willing to accept that it was time for divorce. An abuser has ripped apart the covenant. One of the saddest parts is that now the church thinks I am the one who did the wrong, because I have done the greatest sin (to many of then, the “unforgivable sin”): quietly and tearfully got a divorce. But I refuse to agree with their assessment. Until you have lived it, you simply cannot know. Until you have watched what happens to children in an abusive home, you cannot know.
Divorce is not God’s best, and a variety of solutions should be tried before divorce becomes an option. But living with an abuser who will not stop abusing (who is so mentally sick that he or she literally cannot stop abusing) is even more destructive than divorce. God speaks out very strongly against those who harm the weak. When we tell a wife that she and her children must stay with an abuser, we are not standing on God’s side.
Kelly, I hear the pain in your heart as you share your thoughts, and I appreciate it. There is nothing lovely about hurting marriages. Some of them can be healed. But some of them are so gangrenous that the only solution is to cut off the limb before it kills the rest of the body. We have to be big enough people to accept that sometimes this is so, and support those who’ve experienced such horror, not condemn them for divorce. As we advocate for healthy and strong homes, we must remember that marriage is not the highest thing, nor is a broken marriage the worst thing.
Thanks for listening.
AM (and Mrs. Santos),
By the statement:
“Men need to feel like men, and women need to feel like women, and this is the basic formula for a thriving marriage..”
I am not implying that it is our responsibility to fulfil the deep needs of our spouse–absolutely right, only God can do that.
But in an age of egalitarianism, there is not enough being said about the very practical side of treating each other with our created differences in mind.
I was merely trying to reiterate what the Bible has already said about our treatment of each other–it was said for a reason.
So that when I “respect or reverence” my husband, I am fulfilling his God-given desire to be respected. And when he loves me as Christ loves the church, he is fulfilling my deep desire to be loved.
“Making me feel like a woman” or vice versa is the admittance that in fact we are different, God made it that way, he told us how to treat each other for marriages that would thrive, and though it’s manifested in many ways, the simplicity of that realization would save many a marriage, I think.
momofmany,
I agree with you, that there are marriages where one or both spouses have mental illnesses or where abuse must be stopped. I don’t have the answers to that and can’t imagine the hardship. I would extend my deepest compassion to you and not judge you at all, not knowing anything of your situation and not presuming fault.
This post was more about the majority of marriages dissolving that do NOT suffer abuse–the “right” to be happy when that merely involves a loss of feelings or an unwillingness to sacrifice. It’s an epidemic, far more widespread, in my opinion, than the sadness you speak of.
Furthermore, (prepare for a rabbit trail)…I often get berated for my stance on dating/courtship, which always leaves me shaking my head. Abusive spouses and even unbelievers would most likely be avoided if marriage were approached with a more biblical perspective. Prevention of these marriages is a lot easier than trying to pick up the pieces.
Likewise, my stance on roles is not popular, though I know with all my heart that departing from Scriptural principle is a major cause of marital problems.
I get accused of placing too much an emphasis on family, when in reality, when families break, everything around them breaks. It causes a ripple effect that hurts those closest the hardest, and continues down the line until the whole society is turned upside down. Families matter!
So as I see all the tangled elements of things that may break a home, I’m more determined than ever to keep speaking them, and encouraging you all to do the same. Say the hard things…do the hard things…maybe in the time before marriage, maybe the “radical” steps to raising children who have a different world view.
Every single thing I talk about on this blog is, what I feel, steps to help fortify the family.
I need respect. I need to feel important. It feels good to be admired – I like to lead. And that’s the way I was created. I’ve always been this way.
Kelly,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I think it is good to work for whole and holy families. I just don’t always think it’s as easy as 1, 2, 3.
For example, my husband and I did not date. We were very chaste and very careful as we got married. You would have never guessed that he would do what he ended up doing. We married in the most honorable of ways, a long time coming, rejoiced over by our church, our minister, our families…
And as soon as we were married, that’s when it started…behind closed doors. It was always behind closed doors. I’ve learned that this is fairly normal for abusers. They don’t turn off the charm until they’ve “got” you, if that makes sense, because they are very smart.
Courtship is not the answer for avoiding an abusive spouse.
It might help…maybe… but we still need to be faithful to train our sons and daughters to know what abuse is (the different forms it can take-mental, sexual, physical, etc), and that the loving thing to do is stand up firmly to abuse, as opposed to submit to it.
My husband did not respect me, and I agree with Jessica in saying that I needed to be honored, to be treated with honor. He mocked me when I said such. He said I was a woman and only men needed respect. But I say that there is no love where there is not respect. You cannot love someone and treat them with disrespect. A good man respects and loves his wife. A good woman respects and loves her husband. There is no Bible verse that says women don’t need respect and men don’t need love. In fact, there is a Bible verse that commands men to respect/honor their wives (1 Peter 3:7, I believe). And any abused wife can tell you that it is like living on parched desert ground without water to be regularly and routinely disrespected in your own home.
I know very very few believers over the years who’ve gotten frivolous divorces. I know some who’ve dealt with very serious issues, tried to go to the church for help and got a band-aid answer instead of anything that could actually help. I’m not sure why…but my guess is that we, in the church, don’t know the difference between a small problem and a huge one…and so we apply essentially the same advice to ALL the problems and then blame the husband and/or wife with the serious problem when the solution didn’t work for them like it did for the other couple with the small problem…
To this day, I do not recommend that troubled marriages go to the church for help. I have seen church counseling sessions do more to harm than to help. I’m not sure what the answer is (my current response is to get a good recommendation for a top-notch local professional therapist who is skilled with couples in trouble–and that actually has helped some I know!), but I know that the solutions we in the church are currently presenting are essentially putting a bandaid over a serious and often life-threatening infection. We need to be very careful, as we listen to those struggling in their marriage, to listen with true spiritual discernment. Some times a problem is something small…something a book or a hug and encouragement might fix. But sometimes the problem is huge. Those are the times we need to encourage people to go see a professional who has spent years training to deal with problems just like that.
Great post Kelly!
I think one of the biggest factors in most (not talking about mentally sick ones) failing marriages is selfishness. Can you imagine what it would be like if all married folks woke up each morning with the thought “How can I make my husband/wife happy today?”. What if women started bringing their husbands coffee or breakfast in bed? What if we actually greet him at the door with a kiss when he comes home from work? What if we compliment his physical traits regularly and/or initiate intimacy sometimes ? What if we actually stop acting like self-righteous nags? Ouch! I know that one was harsh but I see that one all the time (and I used to do it myself until the Lord showed me how utterly sinful it is).
….. I could keep going….
Sigh… One thing we can all do for the hurting couple is to pray. Really really pray… not just in that jotted-down-on-my-prayer-list kinda way either. The pain of a troubled marriage is raw, excrutiating beyond belief. The pain of knowing that your marriage is mortally wounded is even worse. The realization that the miracle you are hoping beyond hope for is not going to happen is… well I don’t really have any words to describe that kind of pain.
Have pity ladies. Have pity.
I tend to agree with momofmany. I think your ideas are good, Kelly, and I’m not saying that you are recommending people stay with abuse — I know you wouldn’t do that. I’m talking about counseling here:
My husband is a pastor and so I know for a fact that many ministers are not professionally trained in any kind of counseling (my husband is not, and so does not do much in the way of counseling). But, they are the “poor man’s psychiatrist” and are many times called upon to do things they are not qualified to do, and many are not professionally trained in counseling. My husband only took 2 courses: one correspondence course in counseling, and one general psychology course in college.
I’m not putting my husband down. I’m just trying to show that many ministers are not professionally trained in counseling and it is not necessarily the best place to go for counseling. ASK your pastor or other minister if he is trained as a counselor. Don’t assume that he is. He may not be, but may feel that it is his duty to counsel, and may, in fact, feel quite uncomfortable with it. Counseling is more than just throwing out a few Bible verses.
In some states, it is illegal for a minister to counsel unless they have a degree in counseling.
I agree that marriages in very serious trouble need a top-notch professional counselor. My husband knows his limitations and sticks to his calling: preaching and Bible teaching. He will do pre-marital counseling from the Bible, using a book as an aid for young people.
I think many pastors are too busy to do in-depth counseling (in addition to not being qualified). Many Christians also, like the commenter said, treat serious problems the same as non-serious ones.
I would refer somebody with a serious problem to a professional trained counselor, myself.
I think it is unfair of Christians to blame the victim, saying “just forgive them” when the abuser is mentally ill and you must get yourself and your children away from them. It is unfair to act like salvation is the answer to everything — when you come to Christ, all your problems go away. If the abuser refuses to change (or is mentally ill and cannot change), this is not the victim’s fault.
But, Kelly, I think your suggestion of taking a young couple under your wing is a good one. My husband and I have done that many times.
I don’t either (forgive me) see where courtship will prevent problems. Abusers hide their personalities until they have you. They can be very charming. People need to know what abuse is and that it is wrong and that it is not their fault.
A workable marriage is a two-way street.
I did not read all the posts, so if this has already been written, please excuse me.
I realized there are marriages that are abusive. I realize they can’t all be “fixed”. This does not relieve us from our duty to God to be the wives he commanded us to be. Sometimes it may not make any difference what you do. Sometimes it DOES. I lived this in my own marriage. The “bandaids” worked for us. When my husband looked into my eyes and told me he “couldn’t do this for the rest of his life” I knew something had to change and that it needed to be me. Through prayer and books I believe were sent to me by God, our lives are VERY different. I don’t know that he has changed that much. Maybe if I dwell on that, then I will lose the gratitude I have for our lives together. Maybe I was selfish. Quite possibly, in fact most definitely my feminist, new age, feelings are important-upbringing contributed to the fact that I didn’t know how to be a good wife. We all know how hard it is to be a good wife to a bad husband, but they suffer with the same problem. It is hard to be a good husband to a bad wife. We can’t control anyone else, but we can control ourselves. Once again, I know this will not always produce the desired results, but sometimes it will.
The comments have taken a different direction from the intended post, which is fine, but I’m not going to comment further in that direction, simply because it’s a whole different subject, that deserves a completely different look and discussion.
I did however, want to address Mary’s and momofmany’s comment:
**I don’t either (forgive me) see where courtship will prevent problems. Abusers hide their personalities until they have you. They can be very charming.***
First, let’s be clear: I’m not talking about a cute little thing called “courtship” with 10 simple rules and all go happily into the sunset.
So many misunderstand the concept behind the practice. No, it doesn’t guarantee happy marriages. Yes, I imagine some could fool everyone around them. BUT, in a case where families really understand the biblical approach to marriage, there isn’t near the likelihood that a woman is going to marry a man who is secretly abusive.
What I mean is, first and foremost, parents are obligated to know the man/woman and his or her family thoroughly. It is the primary difference, I think, behind biblical courtship and the current system of dating.
If families are spending time with each other in the depth and capacity it takes to get to know one another, it would be very difficult to hide a blaring fault such as mental illness. Not saying it can’t be done, but I would think rare.
There are signs that can usually be spotted if one spends enough time in a family to know if one of its members is mentally ill.
Furthermore, it is usually pretty evident if a young man or young woman does not have a thriving, solid relationship with the Lord Jesus. And that is our primary concern. If there are doubts about that, there should be no consideration for marrying one of our children.
Just felt a little defense in order. For whatever opposition some have to a different approach to marriage than the current destructive one, I think it’s due to a partial lack of understanding and a misconception that we believe in some fairly tale, magic wand kind of approach. Not true.
Even with its weaknesses, we are still obligated as Christian parents to help our children approach marriage in a biblical way, screening out any potential problems that could destroy their marriages later on. Prayerfully approached, deep relationships, spending lots of time with the family and potential spouse with great discernment is certainly required of us.
“I am noticing a tragic dearth of biblical counseling.”
I agree. Too many people have bought into humanistic ideas, including about counsel.
I can’t speak to this “band-aid” counsel. What does that mean exactly? I mean, I can imagine, but that dosen’t mean that it’s what the ladies here are talking about.
But I can speak about biblical counsel. Now, it also might not be what some people here have experienced. But if someone misused the Bible, that dosen’t meant it’s not the Word of Life.
I have a dear friend who’s husband cheated on her. She wanted to make the marriage work. He agreed to go to counseling. They went to a “top-notch” highly “qualified” (by a secular system) counselor. Counselor was thoroughly secular and humanist. So she believed that there really isn’t any such thing as “right” or “wrong,” just what is or is not desirable by humans. Can you imagine friend’s pain as she longed for an apology? But husband and counselor believed there was not such thing as “wrong.” He had just made a decision that wife was uncomfortable with. This is where secular counsel will lead. At the very least, biblical counsel would say “you are sinning, repent and SIN NO MORE!” If the so-called biblical counselor does not say that then he/she isn’t really a biblical counselor. So what I’m trying to get at is that if a marriage is failing it’s because someone (or both) is in rebellion to God’s word. That sin must be addressed as sin – and sin must be defined by God from His Word.
Re: Christian Counsel
Mary – “Counseling is more than just throwing out a few Bible verses.” I so agree! And yet the marriage and the people must be held up to God’s word – it is the only source of life.
“I know for a fact that many ministers are not professionally trained in any kind of counseling”
-This is not just sad, but a a sad excuse.
“sticks to his calling: preaching and Bible teaching” Teaching should extend to the private lives, and in the counsel chamber, though I would say it needn’t necessarily be done by a pastor.
“I would refer somebody with a serious problem to a professional trained counselor” Well, I think there’s something to that, but the question is, “trained by whom?”
“(pastors) are the “poor man’s psychiatrist” and are many times called upon to do things they are not qualified to do” Again I ask, “Qualified by whom?” A secualar institution that dosen’t believe in moral absolutes? Pastors who fall for this argument (and lay people for that matter) have bought into the lie that the gov’t (who regulate certification) and the humanist societies/guilds know better than God. There were none of these psychology courses when God commanded believers to take their problems to other believers, to submit to the church elders, to give counsel to the younger believers (and by younger I would also include immature christians regardless of age). There was no liscensing agency then.
I mean no disrepect to your husband – clearly you have been helping couples in your community, so I’m guessing this dosen’t apply to y’all, but I’m addressing your arguments.
“I don’t either (forgive me) see where courtship will prevent problems.” Quite right. I’m pretty sure no one has claimed that it’s fail-safe.
“Abusers hide their personalities until they have you. They can be very charming. People need to know what abuse is and that it is wrong and that it is not their fault.” I certainly agree with this.
Also, before I excuse myself, I’d like to address the word’s “love” and “respect.” Like sin, these must be defined by God, from His word.
“It is unfortunate that our modern understanding of the word (love) has become almost exclusively emotional and feelings oriented, because biblical love knows nothing of this.”
“The Bible never refers to love as an emotion. In fact, the Bible commands us to love God and each other; only actions can be commanded, not emotions. If God had an emotional “warm-feeling” type of love in mind when He commanded husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the church (Ephesians 5:25), this is not the way the apostle Paul describes it. We are well aware that more is being said here than having an emotional attachment to your spouse.” Eric Rauch here:http://www.americanvision.org/article/the-sacred-cow-of-gods-love/
Biblical love certainly includes respect – as another being created in God’s image, as a co-heir in God’s kingdom, as any example defined in 1 Cor 13.
And if we are to love our husband we must respect him in the biblical sense, the way the church (believers) are to love and respect Christ. Obedience comes to mind, compassion, commitment to peace. (again, obedience, compassion, and peace must all be defined by the Bible – so please keep that in mind if you’re tempted to tell me I’m advocating a closed-lip policy that protects abusers.) Now, this does not cure a sinner/abuser. Only God can do that. But we are still called to those standards – By God in the Bible. Some abusers must be left – but that too must be submitted to biblical precept.
Many hundreds of pages can be written, and have been. I higly recommend anything by Rev. Doug Wilson, his wife Nancy Wilson, and Jay Adams. These people DO have training and experience in counsel – and their methods are also submitted to the Bible.
“Do you want to be loved only when you are lovely? Then do not respect only when you see respectability” – Nancy Wilson
Diane,
Yes, exactly. You say it so well. When I realized, after years of pain, that no miracle was going to come, that I simply was allowing myself and my children to be destroyed, it was excruciating. Pity and grace was what I needed. But by and large, the church gave me books and marriage conferences that would fix everything if only “I would try hard enough,” condemnation for finally crying out for help, or just blank stares. I honestly feel like it’s a wonder I am still a Christian. No one should treat their wounded like that.
Civilla,
What a wise husband you have!
Kelly,
I think it does have to do with the discussion, because of the way marriage problems are often treated in the church–this “one-size-fits-all” approach, and a deep misunderstanding and well-intentioned ignorance about small problems vs. deep problems, and what to do about them. Your post calls for fellow Christians to go “meddle” with each other’s hurting marriages, and I actually think that is very good advice…only with some cautions added, that some problems are best helped by encouraging the couple to go see a highly-recommended therapist…or even, in the worst-case scenario, actually helping one spouse divorce their highly destructive partner, in order to give their children a shot at a somewhat healthy and functional childhood.
There are no guarantees. It’s so tempting to think there is a way to fool-proof ourselves or our children from the deeper wounds of a world of sin and death. But there isn’t. Sometimes, even with the best of plans, terrible things happen. Wolves get into good and healthy flocks of sheep, no? It isn’t the shepherd’s fault that wolves exist. No amount of “perfect green pasture” will solve the problem of wolves.
We need to be prepared for those things, not caught unawares (as I was). I hear a lot today about guarding our young women from even thinking about working outside the home, etc, or how wrong it is to even let divorce be an option. But that is like giving a shepherd the task of gaurding a flock without a rod and staff. We simply do not know what will happen, even with the best laid plans. Mental illness can strike later in life (and some mentally ill people are capable of having a healthy marriage while some are not—it differs from individual to individual). Abusive personalities are often incredibly intelligent, able to hide, even able to have what seems to be (and what may actually be) a vibrant relationship with the Lord, while at the same time quietly carrying on a campaign of psychological abuse towards their spouse that would make communist prison gaurds proud.
We need to be wise, and set our hearts and minds on the ideal, but at the same time, have the tools to make it out okay if the wolves should come to call. I had stars in my eyes when I wed. We did everything right. And yet…
As far as I know, there is no Bible verse that promises we will be free from the hardships that are common to all. We do have a God who walks with us tenderly through them. For Him, I am so thankful.
mom of many,
I agree with you.
I definitely agree that you want counseling that is professional AS WELL AS counseling that is honoring to the Bible.
However, just tacking “Christian” on the word “counseling” does not necessarily guarantee good counseling.
If you are getting bad counseling, from you pastor, from a Christian counselor or a secular counselor, MOVE ON.
Some former parishioners once confided to us that they went to a Christian counselor who gave TERRIBLE advice and was completely unhelpful. They moved on to a secular counselor who gave good advice and was helpful. Were they ever surprised (and disappointed in Christian counseling).
My husband is a pastor, and a Bible teacher. He is not a medical doctor. He is not a psychiatrist. He is not a criminal justice expert. He is not a professional counselor. He knows his limitations. ASK your pastor for his qualifications if you have serious problems and need counseling.
More and more, Kelly, we are seeing abusive situations in marriages, as illegal drugs and criminal behavior are now rampant, and as pornography and opportunities for adultery are widely available as never before. There is opportunity for all kinds of addictive behavior as there has never been before. Couples have lived together before marriage as never before. This makes counseling much more complicated than before and these behaviors are more common than you think.
So, it is hard to address the subject of divorce without bringing in all of this.
Also, about courtship, I am very interested in the idea, have bought the books, but everything I hear about it is still sort of vague to me. Just how long to these couples know each other? Do they ever spend time alone together?
And, I agree with the commenter that said that sometimes these abusive behaviors develop long after the marriage (the pornography addictions, etc.).
I’m grieved, as you are, Kelly, about all of the divorce you see in Christian marriages.
Kelly, you said that you have neighbors who practiced courtship. Could you tell us what their experience was like, in detail? I would be interested in knowing. I too do not like the modern system of recreational dating where the couples become intimate and very serious and then go on to another and do the same, over and over again.
Ah, back to definitions. For “counselor” I think means “one who gives counsel.” Pschotherapists will almost never give counsel except what med to take. If someone is genuinely *mentally ill” please, do NOT go to a psychotherapist. You will not get better. Go to a real MD, and preferably a neurologist.
“Pastor” I thought means “One who pastors/guides.” “To counsel” I think surely is part of guidance. Pastors should be trained to give biblical counsel. Like I said, I don’t think counsel must be done by a pastor, but frankly a man who is not prepared to give biblical advice is not prepared to lead a flock. Again, I’m assuming this does not apply to anyone’s husband here. And yes, a pastor should be trained to look for symptoms of mental illness, and recommend medical attention if need be. But he still must deal with the sin. If someone is abusive with a mental illness, they must be admonished for their sins while getting medical attention (one of many reasons why people shouldn’t waste time or money on a psychotherapist).
Mary,
Again, I think it’s important to have a grasp of the “concept” of biblical preparation of marriage, not just a formula–for every family is different.
Here are a few of the posts I’ve written, including two of our neighbor’s courtship stories:
A Story That Must be Told
Happily Ever After: Justin and Melissa
A Wedding That Changed My Life
What is Courtship
Oh, and for the record, I do think non-Bible believers can give good advice.
Ok, Kelly, I’ll have to read those.
Yes, pastors can easily give Biblical marital counsel without professional training: the addictions need to stop, the beatings need to stop, they are sin, etc. You don’t need professional counseling to be able to give that kind of counsel. Nobody needs to be a pastor or professional of any sort to be able to give Bible counsel. I’m not saying that.
What I’m trying to say is that it is not so simple these days, as a young couple just being selfish and being able to respond to some Bible teaching.
We see more abusive and addictive behavior today than ever before, and couples coming into marriages with big problems.
Any problem can be overcome if BOTH parties are willing to work at their marriage. What we are seeing so much of today is couples where BOTH are NOT willing to change, and who don’t CARE what the Bible says, and sometimes the couples need medical/legal/criminal justice help, which goes beyond normal pastoral training. I wish it weren’t so.
For young couples contemplating marriage, my husband has no problem giving Biblical counsel (any Christian could, using the Bible), and giving the wisdom that comes from nearly 40 years of marriage.
There are cases though where doctors, lawyers, police need to be brought in. In these cases, with abuse or addiction involved, it is cruel to tell a abused party that they are just not praying enough or not having enough faith, or not doing something right, or implying that it is the victim’s fault. But you do see this happen in churches all the time. Church people are callous; pastors are not trained in these types of things where both parties are not willing to change; flippant advice is given; not enough time taken in prayer for people.
In larger churches with a lot of young couples, a pastor’s WHOLE DAY could easily be spent giving marriage counseling (I’m glad we are not in that situation — we pastor mainly geriatrics), causing him to neglect the study of the word. I don’t think pastors were ever meant to be solely marriage counselors.
We once knew a couple where the man was into pornography addiction, which started long after the marriage. He was very strict: no tv, no movies, no books that weren’t the Bible, not even a decorating magazine permitted in the home. He ended up being institutionalized for a while due to mental problems, then into pornography addiction, asking his wife to do perverted things, coming close to molesting the daughter. Finally, things started flying off the walls at home (demonic presences). Church people and pastor at her church told her she wasn’t praying enough, she needed to forgive, threw out Bible verses, blah, blah, blah. It was easy for them to give this advice. THEY didn’t have to live there.
WE told her to get out of there. She is in no way obligated to stay and put herself and her children in danger. It didn’t take any professional training to tell her that; her husband, though, DID need professional help from the medical community. Sometimes like the Good Samaritan, a pastor or other Christian needs to recognize his/her limitations and call in somebody more capable of helping a young man like this.
We live in perilous times.
I would further say that any pastor who does not acknowledge his limitations or know when to turn a counselee over to the medical or legal community when Biblical counseling has not been responded to for whatever reason, is not prepared to lead a flock.
I would have always believed that it would be better to leave an abusive marriage, but my husband was raised in a very abusive home and he says he is so greatful to his mom for not leaving. He is a very good husband and father and he says he believes it was because of the things he saw when he was young,My sister in laws both blame their mom for not leaving and they have gone on to 3 marriages apiece and several “relationships” their children have all been sexually molested and neglected and farmed out to whoever will take them ,all because they said they “.will not stand to be unhappy”,they weren’t even in abusive relationships.It sure has been worse for their children growing up then it ever was for them.So I do not know any longer if it is better for the children to divorce in that case, all I know is every divorce I have seen even for the childrens sake the kids end up worse off it seems.Not a popular view by any stretch of the imagination.
Kelly,
I know by reading your blog entries that you are committed to Christian success in marriage. However, what about your wedding business? How do you ensure that you are not helping to set these people coming to you to get married up for failure? Can you accept money off of others’ sinful and godless lifestyles in the name of making a buck? I think you have mentioned some of the people getting married there have lived together before getting their marriage certificate. What about them? Or does the fact that they have a “state” document saying they are now married make it okay? Also, can someone truly be “married” if God is not in the equation…seeing as marriage is truly God-ordained and not state-ordained? How does it all resonate with your stance?
I know you point us to the Truth through all you do, but I really want to know how all this adds up? I could be completely off on this, and if so, I am sorry. I realize there could be things going on behind the scenes to which I am not privy.
In Christian Love,
Karen
Mary said “What we are seeing so much of today is couples where BOTH are NOT willing to change, and who don’t CARE what the Bible says, and sometimes the couples need medical/legal/criminal justice help, which goes beyond normal pastoral training.”
Mary,
Matthew 18 is good for a pastor to refer to in dealing with the unrepentant.
If medical or criminal justice help is needed, then I think all of us are in agreement that those avenues should be pursued.
To all,
The original intent of the post was clearly not saying “Stay in an abusive marriage”. The point is that there are many, many marriages that are falling apart because of selfishness. Self…flesh. Self on the throne. I’ve been involved with helping with some of them.
Kelly mainly speaks to women, so of course she is going to encourage the women to deny self. Denying self is not equivalent to let yourself be physically and emotionally abused.
One of my best friends wrote a great post about her own experience of denying self (within the marriage context) which may give a better idea of what I’m talking about. It is well-written and funny.
http://garlandhouse.blogspot.com/2008/10/how-pig-skunk-saved-my-marriage.html
Andrea
Kelly,
Forgive me for saying “the original intent of the post is”. That was rather pretentious….
Perhaps I am wrong…
Andrea
Karen, I think you bring up a valid question about leaving/not leaving and what it can mean to families….my Mom became very bitter toward my Dad early in their marriage, and I always wondered if her attitude had been different could their lives together have been different. It’s just something I think about, and I try not to judge my Mom, because my Dad is not an easy man to live with. But I still wonder….
You asked this of Kelly, so forgive the nosing in, but I think something that should be considered in the question of secular marriage is that God is ALWAYS in the equation, whether the couple acknowledges Him or not. Omnipotence is a difficult power to comprehend, and if He only worked in the lives of believers, we’d be out of converts in short order
. I work with couples all the time, unsaved, sometimes unmarried, who are decorating their homes – should I say no, call me back when you’re saved, or should I do a good job, and use the opportunity to bless them and encourage them toward Christ? My husband was a confirmed atheist when we married, and when he came to Christ, he was the most spiritually advanced person I knew, because he had borne witness to the ways of truth by the *example* of other godly men. To be that example, we have to be available to serve non-believers. We pray all the time for ways to minister effectively (and our work can be a brilliant ministry), bring folks closer to Christ, and then turn our noses up because the needy aren’t always neato.
Andrea, yes, Matthew 18 certainly is the route to go with the unrepentant. Unfortunately, we’re seeing a lot of unrepentance in the church today, people who don’t want to give up their sin no matter what. It’s selfishness. I’m not talking about mental illness here.
I think it is a good idea to get people when they are young and like Kelly says, take them under you wing and model Christian living and Christian marriage for them. When we were younger, in our 30′s, we had two such couples that we mentored like this. You are able to give them time this way, keep them away from harm by keeping them in close fellowship with you.
*NOTE
The 2 Karens above are two different people–you might want to use a last initial.
Karen,
I have asked myself all those same questions. My conclusion was akin to what the cottage child said. Thinking, for example, about a couple who has lived together, marriage is a step in the right direction, if anything, and should be encouraged if the relationship is going to continue at all.
I don’t feel responsible, as a venue owner, to only allow Christian marriages, anymore than I feel responsible for a child in daycare by patronizing a business where his mother works. Does that make sense?
How can you teach your daughters and sons that their marriages have to work out a certain way, and anything else is detestable and an abomination in God’s eyes, and then, say it’s okay for these people to marry in your home, because it gives you an income. Yes, we are to serve and minister to non-believers, but ministering involves the sharing of the redemptive message of the gospel. Otherwise, we no better than the atheistic do-gooder. Catering to a marriage that you know will probably fail, and then, saying you have a heavy heart for marriages and the divorce rate cannot coincide.
As for your response about not being responsible as a venue owner to allow only certain clients and beliefs, then why do you feel and place that same kind of responsibility on public schools and their curricula. Why then judge public schools for their lack of Christian ideals – if they, as you, should not be responsible to cater to only one religion? It honestly seems lopsided.
Speaking of abusive spouses again, don’t underestimate the power of prayer for that one. We are instructed to pray for those that despitefully use us. How do we pray for them? Do we pray for Cadillacs and good jobs and money for them — things that will bring no eternal good? No, we pray that the Holy Spirit will draw them to repentance by convicting them of their abusive behavior (and NO, you do not have to STAY there and put up with beatings, etc., while you are praying for them, you know what I’m saying), but praying down conviction on people who use, abuse and offend us is the right thing to do. Perhaps they will respond with repentance and true forgiveness and healing can take place.
Karen L, you make some great points.
“…. ministering involves the sharing of the redemptive message of the gospel….”
In my experience, this is best done by folks with the hearts Kelly and her family have, and more than one saint speaks of doing this by example and in service first, by word second.
“…Otherwise, we no better than the atheistic do-gooder…”
Exactly, which is why a Christian wedding planner is better than an atheistic do-gooder
wedding planner.
“…Catering to a marriage that you know will probably fail, and then, saying you have a heavy heart for marriages and the divorce rate cannot coincide…”
Applying that line of thinking, no one should ever be married. The divorce rate among self-professed Christians is as high if not higher than the general population.
“….Why then judge public schools for their lack of Christian ideals –”
Because public schools operate with impunity against Christian ideals and traditional families, while marriage works towards establishing those things in a home.
It’s not lopsided, except that it’s loaded down with humanity. We’re responsible for one another, as Christians, and as potential Christians. I say keep them close, and shine the light.
How’s that for a rabbit hole, WW?
Why not keep youself close then to the Christians and potential Christians in the public schools? Same thing, but you have more people to whom you can shine the light.
The Word is what saves, and doing the deed without the Word does no good. How many people have asked you about Jesus because you appear to be a good person? Maybe a couple, but how many more can be reached by a thorough proclomation of the gospel?
Sin is sin, and promoting sinful lifestyles in order to line your pockets is detestable! It doesn’t matter that you think you’ve put them on a better level of sin, because they now have a marriage certificate. They need Christ, and not someone who will smile and cater to them and tell them it’s okay and keep them in darkness about their sin and need for a Savior.
[...] felt the need to do some unpacking with our previous discussion of hurting marriages. It needs to be said, apparently, that I’m not addressing marriages with true abuse taking [...]
Hi, again, Karen L…
To your first question, because adult laws aren’t children’s to negotiate. I don’t send my children unprotected into any situation that directly assaults their personhood, any more than I would stick them in the middle of a battle field, or the side of a busy freeway, and yell “take care”. They’re little kids.
The people who have asked me about my faith know I’m a Christian, I don’t hide it even a little. And frankly I don’t consider myself a particularly “good person”. I have embarassed myself to a hot red flush attempting to “proclaim the gospel” in highly inappropriate situations. I wouldn’t take it back, but I wouldn’t do it that way again, either. Timing matters when it comes to the human heart. Discernment applies. The light is a constant, and speaking frequently shields it rather than letting it shine. Sharing our faith is a multi-dimensional effort.
Sin is sin, you’re exactly right. There is no “better level of sin”, no one here suggested that. Being dismissive of opportunities to ignite faith, by example or word or deed, is sin. I don’t think any of us “line our pockets” – I believe God provides. And in many instances, he provides opportunity for livelihood and witness in the same place. Is it any different than a Christian doctor treating a non-believing patient, because sinners should just walk around sick? If that’s the case, we’re all on our way to the hospital in about 14 seconds.
They need Christ, just like we do. And last I read, Christ lives in us who know Him – we’re endowed with the power He has, in fact. I’m not going to stop trying to grow his flock because I do it imperfectly. Gratefully, grace-fully, He already knew I was imperfect, and set about perfecting me.
And I’m not being sarcastic when I say you make some great points – all worthy of serious consideration and discussion, and hopefully the steel will be sharpened.
Karen L,
So… you believe that Christians should have nothing to do with non-Christians unless we are pointing out their sinfulness?
momofmany,
My children attend public school and I am a certified elementary school teacher. We have plenty to do with non-Christians (and probably more than many of you on this site). However, have we forgotten the Great Commission? Go and tell/teach/preach and baptize…and how can non-believers know until their hearts have been pierced (which is what the law is for) and acknowledge that they do indeed need a Savior (the gospel)? Who’s going to do it, if you don’t?
As a Christian, I know that I am a sinful being, and Christ is my only righteousness. That is the only difference between myself and them…that I am clothed with Christ. I have hope, and I have been redeemed. However, what is being offered to these clients living in sin other than a smile and service? Sorry, but too many people aren’t turned on to Christ by good service…It’s mainly through the spoken Word or by reading the Word.
Mary, I agree with you.
Karen L, it’s all of the above.
Cottage child,
Thank you. You said it so well, I feel no need to comment further on that issue
Oops…I read more, I was wrong.
Karen,
I see a couple of different blaring errors in your logic.
First, you say:
“However, what is being offered to these clients living in sin other than a smile and service? Sorry, but too many people aren’t turned on to Christ by good service…It’s mainly through the spoken Word or by reading the Word.”
How do you know what is being offered? Do you know how many times I speak with a family over a given period? Do you know how many times they are simply in our home, with all of us, talking with our children (and yes, there is something distinctly “door-opening” about observing children who are polite and honoring, observing the Scripture written about the house, etc.)? I say this humbly, with no self-congratulating. I’m pointing out a Scriptural command: “Let your light so shine before men that they may see and glorify your Father…” to emphasize the error of your supposed “silent” waste of time. You propose that a school teacher who is technically gagged regarding religion is a minister while me, a private business owner, free to discuss my faith is not? That, my friend, is preposterous
You said: “The Word is what saves, and doing the deed without the Word does no good.”
How are you more able to speak the Word at an institution that forbids it, but I am not?
Secondly, admonishing Christian parents to avoid giving their children a non-Christian education is not even close to the comparison you made about providing a business to non-Christians. I am responsible for the counsel, teaching and mentoring my children receive. I am NOT responsible for where a non-Christian couple gets married.
What’s preposterous is that you would claim to have a heavy heart about the state of marriage, and yet, you’ll help provide “marriage” in your home to those who are completely void of God for the sake of an extra buck. Not only that, you’ll have your children work to make these “marriages” at your home possible. How many of these “marriages” do you think will last? According to what I read on here, you believe a successful marriage must include Christ, right? No, I don’t how many times you speak the gospel to your clients, but your silence on the matter and talk of your “righteous” family’s appearance before these sinners tells quite a bit. You are always so quick to draw the line on sin in any other situation, but you’ll overlook it when it could affect your business.
It’s funny that you proclaim your stance on anything and everything from the mountaintops on this blog, but when it comes to telling the world about it, you’ll let a look at your family speak for itself.
As for public school, my children are read to from the Word at breakfast, after school and before bed. They know Truth, and we read consistently through the Bible to keep from having our own agendas read into it. As in those who pull out verses to suit their own wills. I trust in Christ, and I know the promises you cling to are not just meant for the homeschooled. Should one of my children turn from the faith, it was not because they had inadequate exposure to the Word itself and to the Word being lived out.
Additionally, I live in an area that openly allows talk of Christianity/church/religion in the schools. I am free to invite students to church and/or church events, and many churches in the area have flyers for different events sent home with the students. Therefore, complete censorship on all things Christian is not a problem.
So, normally, I just enjoy reading, but this is getting a little over the top…
Karen L., first of all, the issue of Kelly’s heart in all of these issues should absolutely NOT be what we are debating here…if you think that her beliefs are inconsistent, and that correction is required, that is fine….but accusing her of violating her own convictions just to “make a buck” is totally uncalled for, and without merit. If everything that you said was true, the greatest charge you would have against a woman who has proven herself time and time again to be searching the Scripture and striving to live in line with what they teach (not to mention your co-heir in Christ, sister, and member of the beautiful Church that your Saviour gave His life for), such as Kelly, would be that she was in error and in need of correction….NOT that she was disregarding truth for the sake of a larger bank account.
Personal attacks like that are shameful, and waiting for something to come along that you think is inconsistent so that you can pounce and personally attack a sister in Christ SHOULD be cause for embarrassment.
That being said, while I certainly see where you are coming from, and would respect your convictions as totally legitimate if you owned and operated a wedding business…assuming that that is the way a wedding business has to be run to be God-honoring finds no Scriptural merit. In fact, their is one major that I can think of, just off the top of my head that is strongly in Kelly’s favor:
In John 2, we see Christ “aiding” a wedding he was attending (and offering witness by His service), and have absolutly no reason to assume that it was a wedding of two people who were Christians (either through knowledge of Christ, or as Jews looking foward to the coming of their attonement in the Messiah). In fact, given the common throught of the day, chances are they were legalists who viewed marriage as somethign that could be broken by the man if his wife displeased him in nearly any way (a Hillel teaching), as this was the most common teaching of the day (although, given, not the ONLY teaching of the day). Also, the man loving and honoring his wife in the lovign and respectful way demanded of men in Scripture is also highly unlikely.
So, we seem to have a situation where Jesus is not only celebrating, but aiding in a wedding where, most likely (and Scripture gives us no reason to assume that this is an exceptional couple for their time) the couple were neither Christians, nor particularly God honoring in the way they conducted their marraige. So, therefore, aiding in the wedding itself cannot, by definition, be sin (unless I am missing something in Scripture that would lead us to believe that this couple were nearly total non-conformists to the culture that they were surrounded by).
Now, are their ways that it could be done that aiding in a wedding involving a unbeliever would be sinful? Certainly! Knowingly aiding in the marriage of a believer to an unbeliever would be assisting a brother/sister in sin…willingly disregarding the chance to witness because because one is afraid to lose a client would be sinful…but, since most of us (me included) have never seen Kelly on the job…we wouldn’t have any grounds to level those accusations against her.
Kelly, I have tried to post two comments, and WordPress claimed that the first had already been submitted, and the second it accepted…but then didn’t post…is this an issue, or are you actively moderating posts before they go live?
Ha, and then that last one posted…what’s going on, am I submitting things over a posting length limit or something?
I suppose that I am the only who sees these blatant inconsistencies in her beliefs and actions on this matter, then. Does she always draw a hard line when it comes to sin? Yes.
Then why not draw a hard line with this issue…as she has on this blog, but apparently not, when it comes to her business.
Can a preacher refuse to marry a couple? Yes. So, why can you not refuse the allowance of having pagan marriages take place in your home? It appears to me that money is the bottom line for that lack of refusal.
Let me add as a disclaimer that I do not think it is worng to provide service to a non-believer. However, there is a huge difference in spending 40 minutes in someone’s house working on plumbing and leaving with the problem resloved, and joining two secularists together into a Godly institution (where God is not present to them, anyway) and leaving them with the major problems just beginning. Where’s the rushing into the burning house in that?
Karen,
Frankly, I’m angered that you’ve launched a character attack against me on my own blog. But I’m not one to disallow opinions, so I answer you. I think you need to consider your approach here, despite your apparent anger, and ask yourself if your heart attitude is to humbly confront a sister you believe is in sin (which Scripture says should be done privately, by the way.)
You said:
“No, I don’t how many times you speak the gospel to your clients, but your silence on the matter and talk of your “righteous” family’s appearance before these sinners tells quite a bit.”
Again, you admit to “not knowing” and then blame me for “silence on the matter”. Frankly, I’m not sure how many times I share the gospel with a potential client is even the real issue here. But presuming is wrong.
Also, by saying that being with our family is “door-opening”, I am not claiming self-righteousness (another example, to me, of how you inflate everything I’ve said on the blog to fit you preconception of who you think I am.) It’s wrong to try and shame me into making a factual observation.
Large families are rare, and that is the first door-opener–just a fact. Apparently polite children are rare or else people wouldn’t constantly remark about them, and even–in the last wedding we had–point blank corner me and quiz me about “how do you get your children to do that”.
Yes, the Lord has opened up so many opportunities for me to share my hope with others through what they think is some novelty in our family. I don’t feel inflated about that and don’t appreciate being accused of it. It is just a fact that I constantly bear witness to.
I submit to you there is a big difference in a minister who performs a ceremony becoming the instrument of covenant-making and a couple who provides their yard for the said ceremony. I understand your thoughts on “aiding” a pagan marriage; I don’t believe what we do is an aid.
If you have further discussions about my character or where you believe I am in sin, please email me.
I was about to jump in and come to Kelly’s defense. But apparently she doesn’t need it
She beat me to it.
I will just say this. If a couple is going to start married life together as unbelievers they will have major problems. It’s a good thing they saw the answer to those problems (God’s Word) lived out by Kelly’s family during their wedding. Now they may know where they need to turn to find solutions.
Actually I tend to agree with Karen, but maybe not in how it was carried out. And providing a venue for said wedding is aiding the wedding. You could tell them to find another venue just like a minister can tell them to find another minister.
But it’s not really any of my business which is why I’ve never said anything. I do however think it’s weird all the people coming to Kelly’s defense with inconsistent excuses.
Mrs. W. and others,
Still pondering, honestly, whether there is consideration that a Christian should not operate a wedding business.
Have to ask this though…what about a Christian wedding dress shop owner? A rental company? A tablecloth company? A cake decorator?
How are these different? Should they only do business with professing Christians? And how then do you know that the professing couple isn’t involved in fornication? Should we allow those couples to get married here?
This is the most awful display of Christian kindness, forgiveness, and communication that I have ever seen. Kelly- you are right. You in my opinion are not claiming to be the GURU of marriage, simply to have an opinion about those that are crumbling.
Really all one could say after all these posts is “get behind me satan”. So sorry to see Kelly that your blog has been molested so, by twisted views on marriage, homeschooling, your families business, and hurtful words.
I think that it is not only wrong, it is evil influence that causes people to talk about a person or a family blindly. Who of us really know the Crawford’s or why they run this business, myself included.
Those that know what a crumbling marriage looks like should appreciate the good advise you have offered.
The ones who posted negative comments that were biting, you should seriously repent and examine why you are so bitter to a woman who has an opinion about a conviction that is real in her life.
I can’t stop thinking about this topic – it’s really NOT Kelly’s place(philosophically, in this context WW, not trying to speak for you
) to question why someone wants to get married at her facility.
If a woman is being abused, since that situation has come up in this thread, and goes to a shelter run by Christians in a family based setting, should the woman be interviewed about her faith before being sheltered? Should she be charged a fee for being a non-believer while Christian ladies are sheltered free of charge? What would the lady’s heart do if she were turned away – open for Christ, or more likely be closed because the “Christians” she turned to couldn’t be bothered with her? weren’t a living example?
“Pagans” as it was put, aren’t any different than any other suffering wanderer. Besides claiming Christ, Biblical teaching, righteous example, and hospitality are in fact what define us Christians. The believing part is between the lost and God. It’s not for us to obstruct the path by way of snarky, high and mighty self-congratulatory snobbery and tsking the weak. I’ll leave the sifting and purification to Him who is qualified.
The Holy Spirit is the only arrow that can pierce the heart, we’re to stand ready with the Word. Christ tells us in John 13:15 “I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you.” Service is part of witness, the Saviour here and many other places commands it ( James is a terrific place to find that in concentration). Actions DO speak louder than words when dealing with the unbeliever.
Maybe I’m selfish – wait, no – I AM selfish. But I’d rather be faulted for a little selfishness than miss my opportunity to embrace Christ on the road because I refused to seek Him among the undelivered.
There aren’t any inconsistencies in any of the defenses of WW – what I do sense is a need for justifications on the part of some who, to quote my Grandfather “would rather criticize the window than work to improve the view”.
Karen L,
I will not come to Kelly’s defense (although I SO want to) because I do not feel led. However, as you profess to be a sister in Christ, I will tell you a story about me. I was once a very self-righteous person, rooted in anger and insecurity. Although I believed my judgments to be on the Word of God (and some of them were), my heart was a septic tank. Anger self-righteousness and judgment poured out of me. Anyone could have heard it, even non-believers. What opportunities I had to be a witness for Christ were destroyed by my heart. Well, I was a witness, but a besmirching one. The Bible says that out of a man’s heart, his mouth speaks (paraphrase). My daughter, now nine, grew up seeing that self-righteousness. Over the last two years it is almost 100 percent gone. Although occasionally I give in to this Satan honoring line of thinking, I repent. I now have to correct her for repeating the trash she heard when younger. It makes me sick and grieves my heart. I am grateful to God that He, through some very LOVING admonishment of friends, made me aware so I could be set free. I hate to see these things come out of my daughter’s mouth for many reasons. One, I taught her this. Two, it is against her very loving, God fearing nature. Three, I have to work extra hard to get the junk out, and this humiliates me, the source.
I would encourage you to look at your speech. If Jesus were sitting next to you and Kelly (WW), would you say these things to her? To anyone? There were times when Christ used harsh language…to those who refused to listen and repent. But He intimately knew their hearts and knew when this was necessary. I dare say, your comments prove you know neither of these things about Kelly.
I am not angry with you, nor am I trying to humiliate you. I am trying to spare you the heartache of looking back and knowing what you have taught your children. And the heartache of knowing that you, like I, have judged another man’s servant.
Truly in Love,
Kelly L
Sorry if I am stepping out of line here…..we are argue things philosophically all day long….but we STILL have John 2….and before anyone can rightly tell Kelly that what she is doing is sin…you have to find a way to explain away the fact that Christ was aiding in a wedding that we VERY likely for two non-Christians…if there is not answer to this….then EVERYTHING flight, fancy, and feeling is totally irrelevant.
If Christ did it…its not sin…period. Therefore, for what Kelly does to be sin REQUIRES finding a legitimate difference between John 2 and running a modern wedding business….
Christ certainly seemed to think that offering service to two unbelievers at their wedding was a totally acceptable form of witness…what makes Kelly’s family different???
It seems to me that this is a case of trying to be holier that God Himself!
“So that when I “respect or reverence” my husband, I am fulfilling his God-given desire to be respected. And when he loves me as Christ loves the church, he is fulfilling my deep desire to be loved.”
Husbands do not have more of a desire to be respected than their wives nor do they have less of a desire to be loved than their wives.
Both men and women like to be respected, loved and feel as if they were “number 1″ to at least one person on this planet. This is not a need just for men.
The Bible doesn’t teach that men have a need/innate desire to be “admired” or respected.
If we are loving one another and esteeming one another better than our own selves, we will naturally respect them. You cannot love someone without respecting them…the two are intrinsically linked.
Also, husbands are commanded to honor (respect) their wives. So, that would mean wives also have this intrinsic need to be respected/honored/admired, too (if we are going to use the same eisegesis).
As a woman, I want to be respected. That, really, is more important to me than being loved and there has been way too much disrespectful treatment of women throughout the thousands and thousands of years of history to not think that respecting a woman is just as important as respecting a man.