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	<title>Comments on: Anyway Love</title>
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		<title>By: Jennifer</title>
		<link>http://www.generationcedar.com/main/2010/03/anyway-love.html/comment-page-1#comment-19269</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Mar 2010 01:26:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.generationcedar.com/main/?p=6755#comment-19269</guid>
		<description>The Bible speaks of what an abandoned wife can do, referring to her marriage as abolished. I think many can see physical abuse as abandonment. Here&#039;s what an older gentleman wrote to me on another site when I asked for help about a disturbed wife, claiming she should have allowed her husband to beat her to death rather than divorce him: 

&quot;1 Cor. 7:10-16 teaches that married persons should strive to maintain the marriage bond even in the face of severe marital hardship. The reason, stated in verses 14 and 16, is that a believing spouse&#039;s testimony may influence an unbelieving spouse to repent and come to Christ. A similar rationale is put forth in 1 Pet. 3:1-2.

However, this passage does not teach that a wife must stay in an abusive situation. It permits divorce when an unbelieving husband &quot;departs&quot; from his wife, or as alternately translated, &quot;abandons&quot; his wife. This can occur without physical separation if an unbelieving husband (as he almost certainly must be to engage in such behavior) so completely forsakes his biblical duties to his wife, i.e., to love her as Christ loved the church, to nurture and cherish her as he would his own body (Eph. 5:25-33 and 1 Pet. 3:7), as to create a situation even worse than physical abandonment. If God permits divorce in a case of willful neglect, it is a perversion of Scripture to suggest that God would require a woman to remain in an affirmatively harmful situation merely because the husband remains physically present. &quot;A brother or a sister is not in bondage in such cases: but God has called us to peace.&quot; (1 Cor. 7:15) It is also entirely appropriate to seek outside intervention from law enforcement or other protective agencies if physical safety is a concern. If the husband professes to be a believer, the church discipline process (Matt. 18:15-17) should be promptly commenced.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Bible speaks of what an abandoned wife can do, referring to her marriage as abolished. I think many can see physical abuse as abandonment. Here&#8217;s what an older gentleman wrote to me on another site when I asked for help about a disturbed wife, claiming she should have allowed her husband to beat her to death rather than divorce him: </p>
<p>&#8220;1 Cor. 7:10-16 teaches that married persons should strive to maintain the marriage bond even in the face of severe marital hardship. The reason, stated in verses 14 and 16, is that a believing spouse&#8217;s testimony may influence an unbelieving spouse to repent and come to Christ. A similar rationale is put forth in 1 Pet. 3:1-2.</p>
<p>However, this passage does not teach that a wife must stay in an abusive situation. It permits divorce when an unbelieving husband &#8220;departs&#8221; from his wife, or as alternately translated, &#8220;abandons&#8221; his wife. This can occur without physical separation if an unbelieving husband (as he almost certainly must be to engage in such behavior) so completely forsakes his biblical duties to his wife, i.e., to love her as Christ loved the church, to nurture and cherish her as he would his own body (Eph. 5:25-33 and 1 Pet. 3:7), as to create a situation even worse than physical abandonment. If God permits divorce in a case of willful neglect, it is a perversion of Scripture to suggest that God would require a woman to remain in an affirmatively harmful situation merely because the husband remains physically present. &#8220;A brother or a sister is not in bondage in such cases: but God has called us to peace.&#8221; (1 Cor. 7:15) It is also entirely appropriate to seek outside intervention from law enforcement or other protective agencies if physical safety is a concern. If the husband professes to be a believer, the church discipline process (Matt. 18:15-17) should be promptly commenced.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Jennifer</title>
		<link>http://www.generationcedar.com/main/2010/03/anyway-love.html/comment-page-1#comment-19268</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Mar 2010 00:22:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.generationcedar.com/main/?p=6755#comment-19268</guid>
		<description>I had got this article as an email and had saved it to read again.  Was so glad to see it posted here and discussed too!
My marriage is going through a difficult time right now, find this an encouraging read....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had got this article as an email and had saved it to read again.  Was so glad to see it posted here and discussed too!<br />
My marriage is going through a difficult time right now, find this an encouraging read&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Word Warrior</title>
		<link>http://www.generationcedar.com/main/2010/03/anyway-love.html/comment-page-1#comment-19266</link>
		<dc:creator>Word Warrior</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Mar 2010 22:48:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.generationcedar.com/main/?p=6755#comment-19266</guid>
		<description>Becky,

I would first say, that &quot;leaving&quot; a physical situation (such as the one my friend has done) is not the same as divorcing.  In fact, I know of another godly woman who could no longer live with her husband (I don&#039;t know why) but has for years been separated and actually continues to assist him if he needs anything.  Don&#039;t know a lot of details, but I&#039;m prone to think that in extreme situations, a wife may need to distance herself while honoring her marital vows.

Divorcing for any other reason than infidelity is not acceptable, as far as I can see, in Scripture.  But I stand to be corrected from someone wiser.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Becky,</p>
<p>I would first say, that &#8220;leaving&#8221; a physical situation (such as the one my friend has done) is not the same as divorcing.  In fact, I know of another godly woman who could no longer live with her husband (I don&#8217;t know why) but has for years been separated and actually continues to assist him if he needs anything.  Don&#8217;t know a lot of details, but I&#8217;m prone to think that in extreme situations, a wife may need to distance herself while honoring her marital vows.</p>
<p>Divorcing for any other reason than infidelity is not acceptable, as far as I can see, in Scripture.  But I stand to be corrected from someone wiser.</p>
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		<title>By: Becky</title>
		<link>http://www.generationcedar.com/main/2010/03/anyway-love.html/comment-page-1#comment-19265</link>
		<dc:creator>Becky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Mar 2010 22:45:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.generationcedar.com/main/?p=6755#comment-19265</guid>
		<description>An honest question here: 

I thought the only &quot;justification&quot; the Bible gives for divorce or leaving one&#039;s spouse is infidelity. Am I wrong? Can you back it up with scripture?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An honest question here: </p>
<p>I thought the only &#8220;justification&#8221; the Bible gives for divorce or leaving one&#8217;s spouse is infidelity. Am I wrong? Can you back it up with scripture?</p>
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		<title>By: Jennifer</title>
		<link>http://www.generationcedar.com/main/2010/03/anyway-love.html/comment-page-1#comment-19249</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Mar 2010 15:50:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.generationcedar.com/main/?p=6755#comment-19249</guid>
		<description>Well, running out and tolerating are different things.

Thank you, momofmany.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, running out and tolerating are different things.</p>
<p>Thank you, momofmany.</p>
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		<title>By: Word Warrior</title>
		<link>http://www.generationcedar.com/main/2010/03/anyway-love.html/comment-page-1#comment-19240</link>
		<dc:creator>Word Warrior</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Mar 2010 13:39:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I&#039;ve thought a lot lately about the issue of abuse in marriage and have these thoughts...

First, I don&#039;t think anyone here is making light of it.  We&#039;re all seeking to understand God&#039;s desire for us in marriage.

I hope I don&#039;t breach any trust here, but &quot;our kind&quot; have been repeatedly accused of enabling abusive men under our beliefs that women are to submit to their husbands.  Our church and community are, &lt;i&gt;right this very minute,&lt;/i&gt; taking care of a woman and her children who have moved out of a situation where the husband has been emotionally abusive--nothing physical.

That&#039;s why I don&#039;t take well the false accusations of &quot;who we are and what we believe&quot;; we do not support  marital abuse.

&lt;strong&gt;Note added: &lt;/strong&gt; this woman is not divorcing her husband, but physically separating in hope of restitution.  I believe the Bible is very strict about what justifies divorce and in some cases, a woman may need to be separated indefinitely, but honor her marriage vows by remaining marriage.  That&#039;s hard stuff, and is my opinion until I&#039;m persuaded otherwise.

Having said that, there is a difference in a truly abusive marriage and one with a spouse who is just insensitive, etc.

In fact, we all probably practice &quot;abuse&quot; in one form or another on occasion.  (Haven&#039;t I tried to manipulate my husband with feelings, or been wrongly angry at him, or spoken with harshness?)

I do think careful attention needs to be given to the definition of abuse.

And I think that if the Bible calls us to longsuffering, and loving our enemy, and doing good to those who hurt us, that yes, as a believer, I exercise those things to an extent in marriage where my spouse may be an unbeliever or not exactly the guy I wished he was.

Again, fine line, but I want to temper the topic in the other direction and say I don&#039;t feel like we are to run out at hurt feelings, or a husband with whom we may disagree, or something that just causes us to practice some self-denial.

I&#039;ve seen women &quot;abuse the definition of abuse&quot; and we must be very careful to not make allowances for that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve thought a lot lately about the issue of abuse in marriage and have these thoughts&#8230;</p>
<p>First, I don&#8217;t think anyone here is making light of it.  We&#8217;re all seeking to understand God&#8217;s desire for us in marriage.</p>
<p>I hope I don&#8217;t breach any trust here, but &#8220;our kind&#8221; have been repeatedly accused of enabling abusive men under our beliefs that women are to submit to their husbands.  Our church and community are, <i>right this very minute,</i> taking care of a woman and her children who have moved out of a situation where the husband has been emotionally abusive&#8211;nothing physical.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s why I don&#8217;t take well the false accusations of &#8220;who we are and what we believe&#8221;; we do not support  marital abuse.</p>
<p><strong>Note added: </strong> this woman is not divorcing her husband, but physically separating in hope of restitution.  I believe the Bible is very strict about what justifies divorce and in some cases, a woman may need to be separated indefinitely, but honor her marriage vows by remaining marriage.  That&#8217;s hard stuff, and is my opinion until I&#8217;m persuaded otherwise.</p>
<p>Having said that, there is a difference in a truly abusive marriage and one with a spouse who is just insensitive, etc.</p>
<p>In fact, we all probably practice &#8220;abuse&#8221; in one form or another on occasion.  (Haven&#8217;t I tried to manipulate my husband with feelings, or been wrongly angry at him, or spoken with harshness?)</p>
<p>I do think careful attention needs to be given to the definition of abuse.</p>
<p>And I think that if the Bible calls us to longsuffering, and loving our enemy, and doing good to those who hurt us, that yes, as a believer, I exercise those things to an extent in marriage where my spouse may be an unbeliever or not exactly the guy I wished he was.</p>
<p>Again, fine line, but I want to temper the topic in the other direction and say I don&#8217;t feel like we are to run out at hurt feelings, or a husband with whom we may disagree, or something that just causes us to practice some self-denial.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve seen women &#8220;abuse the definition of abuse&#8221; and we must be very careful to not make allowances for that.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephanie</title>
		<link>http://www.generationcedar.com/main/2010/03/anyway-love.html/comment-page-1#comment-19236</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephanie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Mar 2010 08:17:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.generationcedar.com/main/?p=6755#comment-19236</guid>
		<description>Exactly, momofmany!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Exactly, momofmany!</p>
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		<title>By: momofmany</title>
		<link>http://www.generationcedar.com/main/2010/03/anyway-love.html/comment-page-1#comment-19233</link>
		<dc:creator>momofmany</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Mar 2010 06:31:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.generationcedar.com/main/?p=6755#comment-19233</guid>
		<description>The Bible tells us very very clearly that words are more powerful than things we can feel and taste and touch.  God&#039;s word created the things we see.  A word can do much more damage than a fist every could.  Proverbs said that words can be as a knife, a sword, and a dagger.  I&#039;m sure we&#039;ve all experienced words being used against us in that way (and can think of times when we&#039;ve done that to others).  A verbal abuser is someone who uses words like knives, not to rip through the body, but to rip through the soul, on a regular basis.  It is not a &quot;whoops&quot; type of sin, but a regular pattern, a cycle.  They use words to keep themselves feeling like they&#039;re &quot;on top,&quot; using their tongue to break down the other person on the inside---not a one time thing, but in a regular way.  (And they are not open to correction or rebuke like a normal healthy person would be, nor do they respond to kindness, like a normal healthy person would).  

And our God has very strong severe things to say to leaders who do not treat their flock with care and kindness, to leaders who use their power to hurt instead of to heal, to step on those &quot;under&quot; them, instead of to build up.  

Ezekiel talks about those evil shepherds who EAT the sheep, instead of tending them for God.  Ladies, there are women reading right now who are married to men like that.  God has horrible things to say about such leaders, and we should not make light of the situations of these women here.    

The Christian, a believer in the power of the Word, should understand that verbal abuse (someone who regularly uses words with intent to harm) is no small thing, an environment to remove oneself from (when possible---for those not in prison camps, under the Taliban or in a dictatorship) and, above all, an environment to NEVER willingly put children in. 

We love our toddlers when we do not buy them a toy every time they throw a fit.  The same is true with a grown man who throws a fit (verbal or otherwise) to get what he wants.  To give him what his flesh wants (to tiptoe around him to keep him from throwing the fit, and/or greeting the fit with meekness and obedience) is NOT to love him.  It is to feed his flesh. 

Real love, God&#039;s kind of love, doesn&#039;t submit to fits and tirades and power displays.  Real love tirelessly works for the best.  Walking on eggshells so as not to upset an angry man is not best for anyone, especially the young souls in the home who are watching mom and dad and learning to think of unhealthy relationships as &quot;normal.&quot;   It is NOT normal to have to regularly walk on eggshells in your own home.  It can eventually feel normal, because you become so used to it, but that is simply a sign that it is a very destructive situation and that HELP is needed.  

There is a way to be loving and kind AND AT THE SAME TIME set down firm boundaries about appropriate behavior.  A good help meet does not allow her husband to be consumed by his flesh, to be consumed by selfish abusive behavior, without waving a red flag and warning him that he is destroying himself, and that she cannot stand by and watch it happen quietly.  

Women must do this, for themselves and, more importantly, for their children.  

I agree with the advice in this post, when it is talking about a healthy man and a healthy woman.  When it is talking about an abusive situation, however, sometimes the most loving thing to do is to walk away.  Set the boundary and be willing to do the hard thing (of risking that he might not choose his family, but instead choose his rage), BECAUSE you love to much to allow someone&#039;s flesh to destroy the hearts of their children and the heart of their home.   

  For a strong dose of how God feels about abusive leaders, see Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel, where God speaks often about leaders who do not treat those under them with care.  It is not pretty.  I wish we would take this subject just as seriously as He does.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Bible tells us very very clearly that words are more powerful than things we can feel and taste and touch.  God&#8217;s word created the things we see.  A word can do much more damage than a fist every could.  Proverbs said that words can be as a knife, a sword, and a dagger.  I&#8217;m sure we&#8217;ve all experienced words being used against us in that way (and can think of times when we&#8217;ve done that to others).  A verbal abuser is someone who uses words like knives, not to rip through the body, but to rip through the soul, on a regular basis.  It is not a &#8220;whoops&#8221; type of sin, but a regular pattern, a cycle.  They use words to keep themselves feeling like they&#8217;re &#8220;on top,&#8221; using their tongue to break down the other person on the inside&#8212;not a one time thing, but in a regular way.  (And they are not open to correction or rebuke like a normal healthy person would be, nor do they respond to kindness, like a normal healthy person would).  </p>
<p>And our God has very strong severe things to say to leaders who do not treat their flock with care and kindness, to leaders who use their power to hurt instead of to heal, to step on those &#8220;under&#8221; them, instead of to build up.  </p>
<p>Ezekiel talks about those evil shepherds who EAT the sheep, instead of tending them for God.  Ladies, there are women reading right now who are married to men like that.  God has horrible things to say about such leaders, and we should not make light of the situations of these women here.    </p>
<p>The Christian, a believer in the power of the Word, should understand that verbal abuse (someone who regularly uses words with intent to harm) is no small thing, an environment to remove oneself from (when possible&#8212;for those not in prison camps, under the Taliban or in a dictatorship) and, above all, an environment to NEVER willingly put children in. </p>
<p>We love our toddlers when we do not buy them a toy every time they throw a fit.  The same is true with a grown man who throws a fit (verbal or otherwise) to get what he wants.  To give him what his flesh wants (to tiptoe around him to keep him from throwing the fit, and/or greeting the fit with meekness and obedience) is NOT to love him.  It is to feed his flesh. </p>
<p>Real love, God&#8217;s kind of love, doesn&#8217;t submit to fits and tirades and power displays.  Real love tirelessly works for the best.  Walking on eggshells so as not to upset an angry man is not best for anyone, especially the young souls in the home who are watching mom and dad and learning to think of unhealthy relationships as &#8220;normal.&#8221;   It is NOT normal to have to regularly walk on eggshells in your own home.  It can eventually feel normal, because you become so used to it, but that is simply a sign that it is a very destructive situation and that HELP is needed.  </p>
<p>There is a way to be loving and kind AND AT THE SAME TIME set down firm boundaries about appropriate behavior.  A good help meet does not allow her husband to be consumed by his flesh, to be consumed by selfish abusive behavior, without waving a red flag and warning him that he is destroying himself, and that she cannot stand by and watch it happen quietly.  </p>
<p>Women must do this, for themselves and, more importantly, for their children.  </p>
<p>I agree with the advice in this post, when it is talking about a healthy man and a healthy woman.  When it is talking about an abusive situation, however, sometimes the most loving thing to do is to walk away.  Set the boundary and be willing to do the hard thing (of risking that he might not choose his family, but instead choose his rage), BECAUSE you love to much to allow someone&#8217;s flesh to destroy the hearts of their children and the heart of their home.   </p>
<p>  For a strong dose of how God feels about abusive leaders, see Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel, where God speaks often about leaders who do not treat those under them with care.  It is not pretty.  I wish we would take this subject just as seriously as He does.</p>
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		<title>By: Jennifer</title>
		<link>http://www.generationcedar.com/main/2010/03/anyway-love.html/comment-page-1#comment-19228</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Mar 2010 05:15:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.generationcedar.com/main/?p=6755#comment-19228</guid>
		<description>GFG-what you described is exactly emotional and verbal abuse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GFG-what you described is exactly emotional and verbal abuse.</p>
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		<title>By: Jennifer</title>
		<link>http://www.generationcedar.com/main/2010/03/anyway-love.html/comment-page-1#comment-19227</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Mar 2010 05:13:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.generationcedar.com/main/?p=6755#comment-19227</guid>
		<description>Nowhere does the Bible condone verbal or emotional abuse. This shouldn&#039;t be an issue whatsoever, or a hard thing to define. The Bible doesn&#039;t even need to define it; God gave us common sense and the dictionary for a reason.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nowhere does the Bible condone verbal or emotional abuse. This shouldn&#8217;t be an issue whatsoever, or a hard thing to define. The Bible doesn&#8217;t even need to define it; God gave us common sense and the dictionary for a reason.</p>
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