I’m Not Afraid to Say “Dominion”
It doesn’t take much to get me revved up about something, so suffice it to say that after our American Vision conference and a Doug Phillip’s video (highly recommended) last night about the importance of crying out to God for our progeny, I’m pretty pumped. As in, “breathe deeply, you-can’t-change-the-world-in-a-day” pumped.
The problem always comes when I try to share my “running over” on the blog without, well, running over. I’m renewed, re-charged, and I want to use this little platform God has given me to share that recharging with you as well.
Bullet points? Maybe. Here goes…(random nuggets I gleaned this weekend):
- Encouragement for homeschoolers: Homeschooling is NOT in danger of being outlawed. Why? Because we are actually on the cutting edge of technology and are already beginning to witness the vanishing teacher/classroom model. Already schools are realizing that with the wealth of information available at our fingertips, it doesn’t make sense to spend the money and man power on the classic model anymore. Virtual classrooms are replacing traditional ones, and the age of the Internet makes it impossible for homeschool families to be told “you’re not qualified”.
- Homeschooling focus: It’s not hard (given the aforementioned tools at our disposal) to teach children academics. A child who can read, think and is numerate is equipped to learn and pursue just about anything he wishes. We spend way too much time fretting over academics and way too little time pouring into our children a biblical worldview. Dr. North puts it this way: a super sharp saw blade does no good (and can even be very dangerous) if it is set at the wrong angle (i.e. “worldview”).
- Our worldview determines our life. The problem with culture is that people have no meaning, no purpose. Most live for today, tomorrow at best. At the root of it all is our worldview. (Which should cause Christian parents to think VERY seriously about whether it makes sense, or whether it is even right, to let the government educate their children.)
God created the universe with a design and purpose, and we are an integral part of it. Someone imputes meaning. If our meaning doesn’t come from Him, through His Word, man must impute it. And because we all disagree on our purpose here, we become consumed with gaining power because he with the most power gets to impute meaning. Ultimately, it’s anarchy and suicide, on any number of levels. Therefore, what we teach our children, HOW we teach our children, by what means we teach our children is critical!
- I’m not afraid to say “Take Dominion”. God said it–no, commanded it, and so we must say it. Taking dominion and subduing the earth is our primary job here. That’s what the Great Commission is all about and it has been our command since the beginning. We take dominion by a. raising up children for the glory of God–lots of them, if He so determines it (be fruitful and multiply). b. Living for the glory of God in our realm, where He places us, doing all in the name of the Father (subdue the earth). If God is our sovereign authority, it will be lived out our fingertips–the transforming power of Christ changing us, our homes, our churches and our communities–that’s how we accomplish “Thy Kingdom come…on earth, as it is in heaven”.
Just a friendly reminder that we are bigger than ourselves…inhale…exhale.
Related posts:
christian living, family/parenting, homeschooling | Word Warrior | 
May 17, 2010 10:07 pm
Audio available soon!
My “I’m not afraid to say it” is we were meant to amplify Christ. Meaning, we are more than one person in one place (when He was on Earth). Healings, deliverance, truth preached without apology, restoration were all part of His ministry. Now, we look speculatively at Christians who want to follow ALL of the great commission! How can this be? Take Dominion!
Excellent post! May we wake up to what we are supposed to be doing. The Earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof, and He gave it to us!!!!! Satan cannot win UNLESS WE LET HIM!!! Can you tell I am equally pumped up (all the time…sorry, well, not really sorry, jsut sorry to hijack your post)
Wonderful post! I especially love the encouragement… I admit there have been times I’ve feared that homeschooling would be outlawed… then I have visions of running from the law! ;o)
My heart breaks for those in other countries who are not able to homeschool. What a privilege we have!
I don’t agree with most of the points made within what’s known as “Dominion Theology”, but I do agree with the clear reason of what God intends us to do. Great pumping post, Kelly! May God give me just the amount of energy and gump I need. In the meantime, I’ll not lose faith that good schools like mine still exist and will become stronger and more numerous with rebellion against liberal think tanks.
Thanks for the encouragement! My family has purposed to fast once a week for revival in America and to keep homeschooling legal! I believe God has raised up a generation of homeschoolers for such a time as this! If only all christian mothers could get a clear vision of their purpose to raise up a Godly generation at this critical time in history! My husband is a missionary and we have lived on a mission field and have visited many others including communist controlled Cuba and American christians as a whole can not comprehend what it’s like to try to live without freedom! We must be willing to pour our very lives into our children and prepare them for the coming spiritual battle that our country is going to face!
Thanks again!
2 Chronicles 7:14
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
I attend a church full of teachers.I homeschool. I am always doubting my choice.God keeps reminding me through people like you Kelly that I am doing the right thing.
You keep pouring over for us. I am so similar!! Sometimes I get so full of God that it just comes out on whoever and where ever. Honestly, lately I have been longing for that again so it is a pleasure to hear it from you. I so agree with you and I am so enjoying your posts. Praise God for giving me the desire, ability, and privilege of educating my child. That was my sole reason for asking Him to give me a child so I could have someone to pour His love into and raise for His glory. Someone who would stand for truth and love and grace and mercy in a culture that stands for all the opposites. By His grace and with His help I will endeavor to do this each day.
Again I am really loving your blog and I would love to do a review of one of your e-books on my blog if you are still interested in letting me do so. I’d really like to read the one on homeschooling.
God bless and keep pressing on girl,
Amanda
LOVE Vision Forum! Agree completely!
I finally got a chance to view “The Return of the Daughter’s” -wonderful video. I must admit it makes certain longings I had as a young woman far more understandable. Now I’m reading the Botkin’s girls book – these 2 YOUNG ladies are phenomenal.
I so agree with the importance of teaching a Biblical worldview. It amazes me how many reasoning, intelligent Chritians fail to think Biblically. They let so much of the world intefere with their thinking and childrearing. I’ve focused on a Biblical mandate with our homeschooling and my biggest fear is failure
Oh, how I want warriors for Christ! Oh, how I want to hear “Well done good and faithful servant”.
On the upside, we can watch a nature show on public tv and both of them chime in, whenever the THEORY of millions of years is mentioned with – “That’s not right, is it Mom!”. Gotta love a Biblical worldview.
Kelly, can you please point me to a good resource, yours or other, that explains the “Dominion theology”? I don’t know much about it, other than God commanding it in the Bible, so I’m not sure why it is so disputed. I had someone argue with me on that point, “warning” me against Vision Forum and their ministries, but I have yet to see what all the fuss is about. Their main argument seemed to be over the men (fathers, brothers) having so much input into the young woman’s life. Different from the norm? You bet it is…even I can tell that. But aren’t we called to be?
Mrs. Hester – http://www.theamericanview.com/index.php?id=827
kelly,
so much great teaching, so little time…
i love the encouragement in this post! i actually own the “200 year plan” set and haven’t watched it yet. i need to commit to catching up on my dvd watching once we are done with school
my only (slight) disagreement with the above is with the first point. imo, the legality of homeschooling has little to do with the effectiveness of homeschooling. we know it “works”, the state knows it works. that has never been the point. faith based charities work too but the ultimate goal of the state is centralized power. in the eyes of the progressives that control the public school system, their education plan is actually quite successful. i don’t think they actually want to produce an educated population. they aren’t stupid themselves and they know what they are doing. andrew peduwa has much to say about the “communist conveyor belt” system of education and how the goal is to create a mindless class of worker bees that are easy to control.
on the bright side, i also believe that our right to homeschool our children is in God’s hand and since we began homeschooling 11 years ago i have seen this movement as providential. God is raising up a generation of leaders in an otherwise pagan society. paul jehle said in the “history of the world” conference in his lecture on ancient babylon that we should be preparing our children for captivity. (i know – i almost fell of my chair when he said that). he was speaking of daniel being taken captive as a very young man and the way God was able to use him in babylon.
not exactly what i am hoping for
but we should be prepared.
i love to read your blog my sister!!! and i love the new LAF – so much good stuff in one place.
grace and peace – lisa
Great post, Kelly and very encouraging. Just think if everyone Christian would follow that command…. what society would look like in a few years. It’s a pretty picture isn’t it?
From the article Lori linked to:
“Dominion is the application of God’s law over our spheres of influence; the surrender of every area of life and thought to God’s righteous standard. Romans 12:2 speaks of the renewing of our minds. Ideas have consequences; we must rethink every discipline in terms of the Word of God. Philosophy must be based on a theistic footing, not a humanistic one. Economics must be rethought. Our money is a manipulated, contrived fraud. Our economy is based on debt, not capital accumulation. We must rethink psychology and sociology beginning not with a mythical evolutionary struggle, but with man’s moral problem, his sinful rebellion against God. We must rethink political science.”
Well, I agree with the theory of millions of years *shrugs* Even Christians don’t all have the same views.
Excellent post and so inspiring. Thank you! Love the Worldview quote. Reminds me of some of the SM Davis message “How to Develop Cahracter in Your Children.” There are some highly educated yet wicked people who need Jesus. our goal cannot be to merely educate our children–it’s only wallpaper!
B. Moore
http://www.nurseryofthenation.blogspot.com
Great post! Taking dominion in my little corner of God’s world!
Kelly, it’s amazing that our Father chooses to teach me. I’ve learned so much so quickly! Growing up I never realized how little I was being taught. Now I’m playing catch up! It’s funny all these Moms who think like me and have reared such admirable daughters. I have so much hope for my little girl and I have so much to learn in the process.
What is absolutely a big belly laugh is that our Father has used the last 15 years to completely change my way of thinking. I’ve gone from a career-only-to-have-fun (traveling) ninny to a woman-who-is-beginning-to-understand the privilege of training up children and its all by HIS grace. Here’s to taking dominion – may we all get a really big dose of it and bring up an entire generation of Christian Warriors!
For the record, simply reading Genesis through will indicate the age of the earth/universe. When someone is trying to explain who they are and what they’ve done they do not use allegory or fables. They use facts.
Compared to many planets the Earth is young, but not so young as some claim. Time of course is no stretch for God.
You captured it so well! I wish I could articulate as well as you have here. It was very nice to meet you this weekend, and very funny that I didn’t know it was you until after you had already left… It I so empowering to know there are other families taking dominion out there, and be reminded we are not alone. Thanks so much!
I like this quote and think it is only in Christian homeschooling that it is being applied
The worst education which teaches self-denial, is better than the best which teaches everything else, and not that.
John Sterling
Dwayne,
LOVE it. Going to have to facebook that one
Jennifer, may I direct you to Answers in Genesis? They have excellent resources that Biblically prove that the earth isn’t millions of years old using science and not just “because the Bible says so” arguments.
I think people tend to believe that homeschooling is for nutso Christians who want to uber-shelter their children from the evil world when in fact homeschooling is embraced by a diverse group of people. Sometimes it’s the parents who believe they can offer what’s best for their disabled child. Sometimes it’s the college-degreed mom who’s frustrated with the crummy schools in her area. Sometimes it’s the parent who’s child is being bullied and the school won’t do anything about it. Or the daughter who becomes pregnant and needs to finish school based on her abilites as a pregnant teen. Or the liberal who thinks schools are too conservative or the vice versa. Or the hippie who just wants to do things their way. Or the parent of the gifted child. So, I cannot see homeschooling being in danger of being outlawed at this time.
Thank you Kate, that’s very interesting
I very much believe what the Bible says; I’ve just come to think that the six days of Creation were in God’s time, in heaven, and not our current timezone. The fact that science says everything took years to get here but arrived in the same order the Bible says is fascinating to me.
SavedbyGrace said: “When someone is trying to explain who they are and what they’ve done they do not use allegory or fables. They use facts.”
But what about Jesus’ parables?
Dana,
Saved may answer for herself, but I think Jesus used parables to help explain spiritual truths that were/are difficult for us to grasp. The discussion in question is factual information so it doesn’t seem logical that the Bible would use allegory to represent fact when that isn’t needful.
Hello Dana. I didn’t mention Jesus nor the parables He used to teach with. Those parables are obviously stories which our Saviour used to instruct both the disciples and ourselves. Jesus also made it abundantly clear that these were stories He used to instruct with.
However, I did mention Genesis. A straight reading of Genesis reads as HISTORY! There is nothing in the book to indicate that it is anything other than fact. Elevating any man’s idea to those of God’s is foolish. Our Father is quite capable of explaining Himself in a manner which can be understood w/o an overly educated man/woman correcting Him. Jesus, Himself, referred to Genesis as actual fact. In no way does any of the rest of Scripture give any indication that Genesis is anything other than fact. Try reading w/o letting anything the world says influence your reading. Sit down and read it through several times asking God to reveal the truth to you. He says in James that if we ask for wisdom He will give it.
Finally, worldly science does not indicate that everything just “appeared” in the same order as Genesis shows God created. In the world’s scheme the sun was here first. In God’s order the sun did not appear until day 4 which is after the plants and vegetation. Again, this would not support that the days were anything other than 24 hour days. Anything else would have killed all the vegetation which God had just created on day 3.
Now, God is a big God. Job says that He holds the entire Universe in the palm of His hand. He is quite capable of doing anything that He chooses to do. BUT- and it’s a very big BUT – what did He tell us in Scripture? Scripture is our only source of truth and if He lied in Genesis or even just exaggerated would He indeed be the Saviour which would save the world? God HATES lies – what is an exaggeration but a lie? Would a HOLY BEING use something He hates?
Argument strictly from authority ( ie. scientist & others) is one of the oldest logical fallacies there is and another is reasoning detached from observational evidence (millions of years). He wrote it exactly as He meant it and He does not need a human interpreter. That’s the Holy Spirit’s job and He will not contradict the Father.
I’ll leave you with this from Isaiah 55:
8For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Thank you Kelly- you are awesome!
Actually Grace, if the sun didn’t appear until “Day 4″, this is further proof that by God’s own definition Creation didn’t occur in six literal earth days! As for science, I was referring to the creatures on earth: land, animals, humans. Science and the Bible agree.
Hi Saved. Was all of that meant to respond to me? I know you didn’t mention the parables, but you made a broad generalization that anyone who wants to identify or explain themselves uses facts. I immediately thought of the parable of the prodigal son, which explains to us something about who God is and what He has done.
I think I understand what you mean about the difference in genre (parable vs. history). But I think we do a grave disservice to Scripture if we go to it looking for “facts” which are not its purpose to convey. Even granting that Genesis is a historical account, it is a post-enlightenment view of history as a sort of science to expect such a historical account to be scientifically exact about every detail of number, family relationship, etc. I say this as a historian, not as someone excessively influenced by scientists. It is a misunderstanding of historical writing (especially in an ancient text) to expect “the facts, the whole facts, and nothing but the facts.”
Part of the problem in this discussion is that I don’t automatically equate “fact” with “truth.” So for me to suggest that the Genesis account is not literal, or even that it is literal but factually incomplete, is not at all the same as saying that it is therefore false or an exaggeration. It’s a false dilemma to suggest that something is either literal or a lie. I’m merely saying that the truth being communicated is perhaps something other than the factual data we might like. People communicate this way all the time: we don’t say that poets are liars. (And history can be equally akin to poetry as to science, as a genre of explanatory/interpretive writing.) Even in historical accounts, we are selective. If a historian leaves facts out because they are not relevant to the point being made, that doesn’t make the historian a liar.
Perhaps we could assume it was a “factual” account (whatever we mean by that) if God’s intention was to give us facts about the age of the earth, the precise method of creation, etc. But I think the purpose of the creation account in Genesis is actually to explain to us something of who God is, who we are as image-bearing but fallen creatures, and what our place in the world is. To communicate these truths, “facts” as modern people define them are not necessary. (As Kelly suggested in her reply.)
I notice that people get very uncomfortable with the possibility of a non-literal text. I wonder if this is a sign of scientific rationalism creeping into Christian thought: we start to, as I said above, equate “truth” with “scientifically verifiable fact.”
I’m not sure where you were going with the part about appeal to authority. I didn’t appeal to any authority but that of Scripture, which is not a logical fallacy in this context. So it’s not always a logical fallacy, is it? It just depends on which authority the participants in the discussion accept.
I apologize for the length, and I hope I made some sense!
I think my comment got lost.
Oh and I just remembered that this post isn’t about Genesis at all. Sorry for the rabbit trail… I started reading the comments and got carried off in another direction entirely.
Perhaps a definition of fact would be useful:
Main Entry: fact
Pronunciation: \ˈfakt\
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin factum, from neuter of factus, past participle of facere
Date: 15th century
1 : a thing done: as a obsolete : feat b : crime c archaic : action
2 archaic : performance, doing
3 : the quality of being actual : actuality
4 a : something that has actual existence b : an actual occurrence
5 : a piece of information presented as having objective reality
— in fact : in truth
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fact
A fact would seem to indicate truth. Truth is not relative.
I have faith. God said it – I believe it. I have no need of proof whether it is so-called scientific proof or otherwise. When science is approached from a Biblical standpoint it ALL fits together very nicely. True, accurate science is Biblically sound science.
Science in Scripture:
The water cycle:
Ecclesiastes 1:7 (NKJV)
7 All the rivers run into the sea,
Yet the sea is not full;
To the place from which the rivers come,
There they return again.
Scripture said the earth was round long before so-called scientist declared it so:
Isaiah 40:22 (NKJV)
22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.
Scripture said the earth floated in space long before telescopes were around to prove it:
Job 26:7 (NKJV)
7 He stretches out the north over empty space;
He hangs the earth on nothing
Scripture says creation was done in 6 days:
Exodus 20:11 (NKJV)
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
12
I’m sure there are more than these and I can’t remember them. Can anyone come up with more? Science is a means of fulfilling God’s command to exercise dominion and to subdue the earth – it behooves us to get it right.
If you would like more proof try here:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-answers/features/young-earth-evidence/?utm_source=aighomepage&utm_medium=bigbanner&utm_content=Six_Evidences_of_a_Young_Earth&utm_campaign=MonthlyCampaign
I don’t think anyone here requires proof, Grace. I just find that the Bible often goes more deeply than literal-surface reading.
If you’re going to say God says it and I believe it, what are you arguing for?
Jennifer and Millie,
Although I don’t plan here to engage in a creationism debate (lack of time and tremendous reference work involved AND I’ve stated before that this blog is not for the purpose of debating different worldviews), I will state briefly why we interpret Creation the way we do, per Answers in Genesis, and would invite you to delve into the resources there for a better look at the way we interpret Scripture.
“If the days of creation are really geologic ages of millions of years, then the gospel message is undermined at its foundation because it puts death, disease, thorns, and suffering before the Fall. The effort to define “days” as “geologic ages” results from an erroneous approach to Scripture—reinterpreting the Word of God on the basis of the fallible theories of sinful people….”
There are certainly instances we believe the Bible is speaking figuratively, but those instances must be ascertained very carefully, otherwise all of Scripture (or at least the parts I don’t like) are up for meaning whatever I wish it to.
““If the days of creation are really geologic ages of millions of years, then the gospel message is undermined at its foundation because it puts death, disease, thorns, and suffering before the Fall.”
Well obviously, those millions of years would have to be devoid of those things; I don’t agree with EVERYTHING scientists say. But I have no problem with their age of the earth; Creationists think God could create the world in six literal days, but not millions of years without having death, disease and thorn in that time? That’s as much selective thinking as anything else.
Thanks for the link, Kelly.
I don’t ascribe to much of what Vision Forum represents. I am, however, Reformed theologically, and politically conservative/Libertarian. In terms of schooling, I homeschooled all ten of my kids to a particular age, and then sent them to school. My husband and daughter teach at public high schools. I don’t believe that there is a mandate from Scripture that all believers should homeschool.
As to “Dominion Theology,” if, as Mrs. Hester declares, that it is commanded “in the Bible,” how is it that so many Christians disagree? I don’t hear MacArthur, Piper or Begg teaching it. Mind you, I understand that those guys aren’t God, but there are many Christians who love Jesus who adamantly disagree w/the concept. That isn’t to say that there is anything (necessarily) wrong w/such practices as “stay-at-home” daughters, but it isn’t theology, and, from my perspective, is a negotiable…the same can be said for college, woman working outside the home (I’ve got no skin in the game…I’m a stay-at-home mom and wife, and wouldn’t want to do anything else), etc.
Finally, this is a question directed to Jennifer. If the six days aren’t literal, and each of those days represent millions of years, then what do you do w/verses like Genesis 21:34 which states that “Abraham sojourned in the land of the Philistines many days.” You certainly don’t believe that he stayed for millions of years, do you?
Sorry, I’m coming to the discussion late. Everyone else may have already moved on…
Cathy – “I don’t hear MacArthur, Piper or Begg teaching it. Mind you, I understand that those guys aren’t God, but there are many Christians who love Jesus who adamantly disagree w/the concept.”
This almost always has a lot to do with *gross* misunderstanding of what Dominion theology is, esp. in the case of Begg.
There is a long tradition of reading what people have to say about Dominion theologians rather than the literature written BY the theologians in question.
And like Jennifer’s appeal to the mass for her support of age-day creation, one can’t look to what others are doing or not doing to gain guidance. That road is your own.
Of course not, Cathy. That’s a very strange question, considering the fact that I only believe Creation took more than six Earth days because, according to science and the Biblical account of when the sun appeared, it was LITERALLY not six days. Other than that question, I think your comments are excellent.
I don’t appeal to the mass, Lori. In this case I’ve appealed to both the Bible and science. I think I’ve made it clear I don’t care what the mass of Christianity says on this matter. Dominion is very much optional, while some of the other things the same groups teach are actually quite the opposite.
Lori, I’ve read your comment more than once, and am not sure what your point(s) is/are. My point was merely that not all believers are in lockstep w/each other, and for that reason, I cited sound theologians who are not in that camp. These guys aren’t my gurus, but many in Christianity consider them sound theologians (I am one of those people), and wonder how they’ve come to a different conclusion than does Vision Forum. To what “long tradition” are you referring? Further, you decry those who would disagree as having a “gross misunderstanding” of the concept. That reminds me of lots of politicians who know that most of the country doesn’t agree w/their stance on a hot button issue, but chalks it up to a dumb electorate who isn’t fully comprehending the issue. Why can’t thinking people who love Jesus disagree on the matter? Unless a view is clearly contrary to Scripture, then I see no reason that we can’t be free thinking.
Good night.
Cathy, good morning.
Cathy – “As to “Dominion Theology,” if, as Mrs. Hester declares, that it is commanded “in the Bible,” how is it that so many Christians disagree?”
” many in Christianity consider them sound theologians (I am one of those people), and wonder how they’ve come to a different conclusion than does Vision Forum.”
Well, first of all, I’d like to address the way you talk about dominion theology. Perhaps it was accidental, but you seem to be using your terms for Dominion theology interchangebly with Vision Forum. While Philips might consider himself pro-dominion, not all Dominion theologians have anything to do with Vision Forum. Long before Doug Philips in the field there was Rushdoony, North, Bahnsen, Chilton, Gentry, Sutton, DeMar, etc. (and it’s beside my point, but I myself have little use for Philips, and I’m in the Dominion camp, no question)
My point was that even well-respected men of God can get certain issues very wrong, and for that matter don’t always even agree with each other. For example, lots of great minds disagree as to whether or not infants should be baptised or professing believers only. I don not intend to begin another debate, I’m just saying great minds don’t always think alike. If I understand correctly, even Piper and MacAuthur would disagree with Begg on this issue. But I’m pretty sure there’s one correct answer to that question. Is it worth breaking communion over? No, nor is Dominion theology. But both are controversial issues where great minds diverge.
“To what “long tradition” are you referring?”
For a good 30 years men have been slandering those who promote Dominion theology, accusing us of believing things we flat out decry in the books, and refusing to read or listen to our responses. I am not interested in naming names as I frankly do not with to give liars free advertising, but Begg I did mention as he was one of the more recent attackers. Again, I have no intention of giving him free advertising, but if you e-mail me I am willing to give you a link to the spewing in question, as well as a rebuttal to said spewing.
For example, lots of people accuse Dominion-oriented Christians of wanting to force “godlieness” by the sword. This line has been vomited up at us for 30 years, no matter what’s written in rebuttal. Begg was one of these offenders somewhat recently.
But from DeMar: “We should not expect any long-term change in society without a radical change in the belief patterns of the citizenry. This means that a revival and reformation must sweep across America with millions converted. From new hearts will flow a new, although not a perfect, society. Societal change without personal regeneration is a myth. If we are going to see society changed, then we must see individuals changed.”
http://americanvision.org/1602/have-only-ourselves-blame/
I’m curious, you must have read the Mark Rushdoony piece I linked to earlier since you are such an inquirer, I am curious what point you take issue with ane why.
Cathy – ” Why can’t thinking people who love Jesus disagree on the matter? Unless a view is clearly contrary to Scripture, then I see no reason that we can’t be free thinking.”
Why, of course we can disagree on the matter! Like I said earlier, issues can be both very important and yet not worth breaking communion over. And yet I also assert that any position other than the righteous inheriting the earth and spreading God’s kingdom through Christ’s power IS clearly contrary to Scripture.
I also highly recommend
_The Greatness of the Great Commision_ by K. Gentry
and
_Christian Reconstruction (subtitled What it is, What it Isn’t) by North & DeMar
both available free for download here:
http://www.entrewave.com/freebooks/sidefrm2.htm
Did I say 30 years? How embarressing – it’s been 40 at the least (since the 1970s).
I don’t believe it’s a matter of being “free thinkers”. I kind of think that’s what has gotten us into the mess we’re in.
As Christians are we not supposed to be conformed to Christ and think as He thought? The freedom is whether or not we choose to confess Him as our Lord and Saviour. However, once we choose Him as our Lord and Saviour our time is supposed to be spent serving Him and conforming to Him. See Romans 12.
Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Cathy,
Sometimes I think we get hung up on terminology and shun a certain idea because we might associate those terms with people or groups we don’t like, instead of searching the thing out exclusively by the light of Scripture.
Consider this by Chuck Colson:
“Sometimes called the ‘cultural mandate’ or ‘cultural commission’, God’s command is the culmination of his work in creation. The curtain has risen on the stage, and the director gives the character their opening cue in the drama of history. Though the creation itself is “very good,” the task of exploring and developing its powers and potentialities, the task of building a civilization, God turns over to his image bearers. “By being fruitful they must fill it even more; by subduing it they must form it even more,” explains Al Wolters in Creation Regained.
“The same command is still binding on us today. Though the Fall introduced sin and evil into human history, it did not erase the cultural mandate….Sin introduce res a destructive power into God’s crated order, but it does not obliterate that order. And when we are redeemed, we are not only freed from the sinful motivations that drive us but also restored to fulfill our original purpose, empowered to do what we were created to do; to build societies and crate culture–and, in doing so, to restore the created order.”
Great explanations, Lori. That’s relieving.
Before I go run the dreaded treadmill (I HATE that contraption), I will quickly respond. First of all, by “free thinking” I meant to imply that while Scripture is plenary, and only has one meaning, we are not always sure of the meaning of particular passages. Of course, I believe that we are to be conformed to the image of Christ (no matter how much I hate pain and trials). I’m not sure why my statement was taken out of context. If I was to parse your words, “Saved by Grace,” then I would take issue w/the word “choose (your word),” because I believe that the work of salvation is because God chose us. I think that I understand what you mean, but you missed my point. If the Bible doesn’t clearly give a directive, I believe that as believers, we can exercise our liberty, e.g., drinking, etc., as long as we act out of love for a weaker believer.
Finally, yes, I did read the Rushdoony article, but will have to read it again before commenting. My take on most of it is that we live in a fallen world, and to think that, somehow, our job as believers is to change politics, etc., seems to me to be a lesson in futility. I don’t believe that is our calling. We shouldn’t be surprised when Prop 8 (in CA where I live) is being fought in the courts. That’s what sinners and the ungodly do. As a believer and responsible citizen, my role is to vote, but I don’t think it’s my role to get involved politically. My role is to continue to spread the Gospel (and hope to advance the Kingdom) to whomever I can when given the opportunity. I am responsible to God to raise my kids in a Godly way, and to share the Gospel, etc. Those are mandates.
I’m not sure to what Colson is referring when he speaks to building societies, unless he’s referring to the ones w/in our own homes and churches. I think that you meant “create” culture, right? And, sorry, maybe you were typing w/a baby on your hip, or my eyes are worse than I think, but what did you mean when you wrote, “Sin introduce res a destructive power into God’s crated order…”?
I’ve stalled long enough…time to run the treadmill.
Cathy,
Sorry, yes, quickly typing and no proofing
“Create” and “introduces”
Cathy – “our job as believers is to change politics, etc., seems to me to be a lesson in futility.”
King Josiah did not cut and run when the odds were stacked against him – life in danger, the land overrun with pagan Jews, dirty priests in the Temple. No. He did not look at things pragmatically, he obeyed.
As I recall, most of if not all the prophets went to both common people *and* to leaders, proclaiming God’s rightful lordship over everything. Off the top of my head I’m thinking of Elija, Elisha, Nathan, Jonah, John the Baptist, ect. None of this, ‘well they’re pagans, I can’t impose my beliefs on them. Of course they’re rebellious, that’s what they do.’
Oh, but that was just in the Old Testament, it dosen’t apply now, right?
“When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.” Matt 28:17-20
1. Make disciples of all nations
2. Baptize all nations
3. Teach the nations to obey everything Christ commanded.
Cathy – ” As a believer and responsible citizen, my role is to vote, but I don’t think it’s my role to get involved politically.”
This is simply contrary to Scripture. Look at it this way – disobedience to the Great Commission aside, you’re talking about leaving all rule to pagans. (I assume you speak as a Christian in general, not specifically Christian woman. I assume this because you’re also referred to male Christian leaders in your previous posts) Only pagans running for ofc means only pagans winning ofc. You’re left with voting for the lesser of 2 evils, until one day you realize that voting for the lesser of 2 evils is still voting for evil, and you complete your retreat from society to be a hermit on a hill instead of building a city on a hill, until the pagan comes and claims that an endangerd species lives on your hill and you have to go. We are not called to pragmatism, we are called to rule.
“for dominion belongs to the LORD and he rules over the nations.” Psalm 22:28 (remember, we as co-heirs rule with Him and will judge w/ Him – 1 Cor 6:2,3)
Now, I will grant that as a woman your sphere is more limited, but as the wife of a man (I asssume, anyway there are wives reading), mother of sons, or the mother of women who will be the mothers and helpmeets of sons, you have a great role in influencing the nations. In addition you will influence others in your common daily doings and special unique ways.
The call, command, and promise of dominion for Christ and His is clearly proclaimed throughout the Bible. It is modern interpretive gymnastics that turns flips and cartwheels around this simple language to castrate the language on dominion to mean personal salvation *only* and personal victory over sin and death *only.*
We want our personal provision (Matt 6:11), personal forgiveness (Matt 6:12) and personal salvation from temptation (Matt 6:13), and refuse to believe “thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven” which preceded all those other requests.
“My take on most of it is that we live in a fallen world”
Christ came to redeem. He called us to help spread redemption. That is our calling. We must obey. Non-obedience is non-compliance, and it is rebellion.
Oh, by the way, I realize that John the Baptist was in the New Testament, but he was living in the time of the Old Covenant (which as y’all know, is another word for Testament), before the death and resurrection of Christ.
NOT SURE IF THIS POSTED.
Lori, Israel was a unique nation set up by God as a Theocracy, and when they begged for a human king, He gave them one. My points are probably moot since you and I would disagree on the premise. I don’t believe that I Corinthians 6 is speaking to the present world.
I believe that, as you stated, Christ called us to spread the Gospel, not politics. This isn’t my final destination (praise God), and my role here on earth is to know God, and to glorify Him. If you want to run for office, more power to you. I don’t. Moreover, the Great Commission is speaking to spreading the Gospel, and making disciples. Christ commands His disciples to make disciples, baptize them, and teach them to observe and obey what Christ has commanded. That passage is talking about converts to Christianity…you don’t baptize unbelievers, and their hearts aren’t conditioned to obey the mandates of Scripture. The heart has to be changed FIRST in order to be out from the bondage of sin. Otherwise, you merely have moralism, and I may as well be Mormon.
I know where you stand, and you know where I stand. Enough said. Although, that isn’t a directive for you to stop writing, but it is to say that I believe your premise is flawed, and, most likely, you believe mine is. I’m cool w/that.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Cathy – “Lori, Israel was a unique nation set up by God as a Theocracy, and when they begged for a human king, He gave them one”
You are missing the point that even when Israel was a theocracy there were leaders – judges- who applied the case laws. And it was a decentralized system of power. The problem was that Israel wanted a highly centralized gov’t “like other nations” (Deut 1). We need to take dominion over our system of rule and law so that it is first of all, *decentralized.” This is also, btw, our Constitutional form.
“The heart has to be changed FIRST in order to be out from the bondage of sin.”
I already addressed this in a quote from DeMar. AFTER the hearts bow to Christ we must change our spheres of influence to reflect Christ. If we can get our civil gov’t decentralized, then it will be a lot easier to re-construct the local culture and law to reflect what we honor.
“you don’t baptize unbelievers, and their hearts aren’t conditioned to obey the mandates of Scripture.”
That’s true you don’t. But I thought I was talking to a believer. I assume that you are baptised. I assume you consider yourself to be something of a disciple of Jesus. I would like to assume the same of your children. Therefore, if you are discipled and baptised, and yet choose to cartwheel over and past Christ’s Commission to spread His rule, then you are in rebellion.
“I don’t believe that I Corinthians 6 is speaking to the present world.”
I like the way you fleshed that out. Makes perfect sense. No, really thank you for demonstrating the agility with with modern pietists can comfortably disengage with the FULL commission of the Great Commission. Now, it’s just kind of the Nice Commission.
“I know where you stand, and you know where I stand. Enough said. ”
Aw chucks! Cathy, I do not write only for you.
“If we can get our civil gov’t decentralized, then it will be a lot easier to re-construct the local culture and law to reflect what we honor.”
Let me give a picture of this. In Indiana, you have a state of fairly conservative farmers. And yet they are ruled in laws by 2 cities: Gary and Indianapolis. This is an injustice to the rest of the state. If power were given at the local level to tax (and removed from higher levels to direct tax), to create laws, etc, then people have more freedom. If they want to punish rape one way and the city wants to punish it lesser then they can protect potential rape vicims as they see fit, as long as they are operating w/in the framework of the state constitution and the US Bill of Rights, etc.
If 9 judges in DC want to make a law about abortion, they can go shove off because they can’t force it on the local states and counties. In a decentralized gov’t anyway. If we can spread God’s dominion to gov’t structure.
Cathy – “unbelievers… hearts aren’t conditioned to obey the mandates of Scripture.”
That is true. There hearts aren’t. But they can still obey in body. Even in our current highly flawed penal system we have intuted punishment as deterrent. So you can’t stop a man from lusting after a little boy, but you can try to deter him from raping the little boy with punishment. (this is a very real issue today. There is a group called the North American Man Boy Alliance that would like to decriminalize homosexual paedophelia. You can Google NAMBA if you don’t believe me)
What happens if the Supreme Court rules that crimilazing homo. paed’a is “unconstitutional” due to the religious nature of anti-homosexual and anti-paedophelia sentiment? What if the man and boy are both consenting?
This is where we must take dominion. Changing hearts and laws both.
I don’t think there’s any need to act as though Cathy’s trying to avoid clear Biblical commands, Lori. Reading the Bible differently is not ignoring or cartwheeling over God’s commands. Aside from this, I think it’s frankly unrealistic to assume we could correct the world’s biggest systems before Christ’s return. Christians don’t even all agree on what kind of laws WOULD be just, for pete’s sake; most Christians for example would be fine with female police officers and civil magistrates, while some others would whine about how this contradicts the Bible.
Oh, Cathy, thanks again! You brought up something else that is so important. You mention when Israel clamored for a king. When was it?
“But his (Samuel’s) sons did not walk in his ways. They turned aside after dishonest gain and accepted bribes and perverted justice.
So all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah. They said to him, “You are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways; now appoint a king to lead [a] us, such as all the other nations have.”
-1 Sam 8:3-5
The people did not call for a king (which was a mistake) until they had leaders who did NOT honor God’s laws (like the laws about not bearing false witness and perverting judgement), and who did NOT fear God. What a great reason to bring up sons who both fear God, honoring His law, and who then *go into public office.* So the people, even those professing God, don’t go crying for a messiah other than God, and law other than His.
Y’all wanna know another term for Dominion Theology? Victory Vision.
What about daughters who fear God and then go into office? I hope these are encouraged too.
“Cathy, I do not write only for you”
Cathy already clarified that she wasn’t trying to stop you from writing. I think rather she was trying to avoid a tail-chase.
That NAMBA crap from hell’s own grounds is one of the reasons I want the Muslim in office booted out as soon as possible.
Not a fan of women in office, wouldn’t encourage it.
“As for My people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O My people! Those who lead you cause you to err, and destroy the way of your paths.” Isaiah 3:12
Women in charge is a sign of a castrated society under curse. So highly likely these days, but not highly desireable.
OOPS! – “even when Israel was a theocracy there were leaders – judges- who applied the case laws. And it was a decentralized system of power. The problem was that Israel wanted a highly centralized gov’t “like other nations” (Deut 1).”
*should* have read:
“even when Israel was a theocracy there were leaders – judges- who applied the case laws (Deut 1). And it was a decentralized system of power. The problem was that Israel wanted a highly centralized gov’t “like other nations.”
sorry.
Castrated society, my foot. There’s a difference between nagging women ruling men and strong women in office. But that’s just my point: we disagree, Lori, and while most Christians don’t object to women in office, others side with your view. So when Christians succeed with this take-over plan, some will be wanting women in office and others will be pushing to outlaw it. Some would even try to outlaw women working outside the home again, and even abolish public schools. Christians have big disagreements with each other. A Christian government before Christ’s return may be just as much in turmoil as our government now is.
Lori, you continually take me out of context, and you have a rather interesting way w/words, e.g., that you assume that I “consider” myself “to be something of a disciple of Jesus.” No, Lori, I actually AM a disciple of Jesus. I am a believer, married to a believer, and, praise God, all my kids are believers. Because I don’t adhere to your world view doesn’t make me less of a follower of Jesus. I am not offended, but I find you pretty intolerant of believers who have differing views. Are you more of a disciple of Jesus because you believe in “Victory Vision” or Dominion Theology?
Were you being sarcastic when you said, “No, really, thank you…”?
To reiterate, I am not offended, but it matters not how much knowledge you have (even if you’re right), but how you show love to fellow believers. That, Lori, is clearly in Scripture.
I completely disagree w/your assessment of Israel’s desire for a king. They knew that Samuel was old, but they looked at the nations around them, and wanted a king. Samuel was resistant to the idea, and God told him to warn the people what would happen if a king was appointed. They ignored it. So, the idea that “holy” Israel didn’t want a king before the sin of Samuel’s sons is, from my perspective, erroneous. Israel continually worshipped other gods, and ignored God. They were fickle, and throughout their history they rejected God as their king, and alternately confessed their sins. If, as you say, Israel didn’t want a king until Samuel’s sons sinned, then why did they reject God as their king? I submit that Israel, who continually disobeyed God’s orders not to worship other gods, not to marry foreigners, etc., merely wanted to imitate pagan nations and asked for a king–despite the grim warnings. I happen to dig Israel, and Jewish people, since my grandmother was a Jew, but this is what the Bible says about the nation of Israel.
What does NAMBLA (you wrote NAMBA) have to do w/this conversation? I am very aware of the group, but find it a bit curious that you would use them to make your point.
AND, Shucks, Lori, I didn’t think that you were writing only for me. However, you were responding to what I wrote, and I to you. Therefore, I made it a point to say that we would most likely not agree, but that’s OK.
As believers, though, by God’s grace alone, we’ll spend eternity together, and I rather think that these issues will dim in importance relative to the glory of God.
“So when Christians succeed with this take-over plan, some will be wanting women in office and others will be pushing to outlaw it.”
I don’t think so. There will have to be a *lot* of consensous to get to the point that the majority of people in any one community can make the laws, in a republic.
But even if there is disagreement, that’s the beauty of a decentralized gov’t – I can’t impose my view from here on to a lady in CA unless she is trying to confiscate my money (deprive me of private property or infringe on my freedom). And if she decides she likes my public school free society over the prostitution in CA, she can move here.
Yes, that’s true. What with the things that have been going on lately with the liberals in charge, sometimes I forget how cool American government is. Thanks for reminding me. I guess I occasionally fear ultra-conservatives taking control and causing as much trouble as the current ultra-liberals in office are (there’s even talk about regulating the Internet).
Cathy – “the idea…is, from my perspective, erroneous.”
Thanks for your explanation of the Israelites under Samuel. It was interesting and I have no quarrel with it. But it does not show how my assertion was erroneous. It was more of an “and..” paragraph rather than a “but..”
Me – ” No, really thank you…Nice Commission.”
Here I was not being sarcastic. I believe that ruling with Christ is part of the Great commission, and will be in perfection at the end of the struggle between God and the rebels. And yes, I thought and do think you’re promoting an overly “pious” version of the Great Commission, and yes, I was thankful to you for showing what that looks like (tending toward cultural retreatism).
Cathy – “What does NAMBLA (you wrote NAMBA) have to do w/this conversation? I am very aware of the group, but find it a bit curious that you would use them to make your point.”
First of all, thank you for your correction. It is the North American Man Boy Love Association. NAMBLA. My point is that someone is going to make laws. Do you want them to reflect what God values or what a paedophile values? If you want laws to reflect what God values, you have to get involved in politics. You can’t rely only on voting for one pagan concept over another. Christians must get involved.
Cathy – “you assume that I “consider” myself “to be something of a disciple of Jesus.” No, Lori, I actually AM a disciple of Jesus. ”
Rock on. I assumed correctly. We are in agreement! I was using rhetoric to make a point, not call your faith into question.
And no, I do not have any inkling that my being right on a subject or maybe even 2 makes me a better Christian. What an interesting conclusion to jump to.
“As believers, though, by God’s grace alone, we’ll spend eternity together, and I rather think that these issues will dim in importance relative to the glory of God.”
True, but that dosen’t diminish the importance of obedience here on earth.
Cathy – “you assume that I “consider” myself “to be something of a disciple of Jesus.” No, Lori, I actually AM a disciple of Jesus.
Oh, I think I see what offended you – it was the use the word “consider?”
If so, what I was thinking was that not all people make disctinction between the words “disciple” and “apostle”, and use them interchangeably. I did NOT mean to imply that you fancy yourself a Christian and yet aren’t. I only meant to avoid the potential rabbit trail about the use/meaning of the words “disciple” vs. “apostle.” That really backfired! I’m am sorry for causing needless offense, truly.
Lori, I don’t agree w/almost anything you say. The idea that Christians need to involve themselves in politics if we “want laws to reflect what God values,” is not what I believe that Scripture teaches. I think that the better idea is to ask God to change hearts and minds. Nowhere in Scripture are we commanded to get involved in politics.
There are other points w/which I disagree, but this is getting redundant, particularly since we’ve already stated what we believe.
Thanks, Kelly, for the opportunity to hijack your blog for a couple of days. Now, back to my regularly scheduled life.
Right, of course. Subdue everything *except* politics. Gotcha.
Lori –
Very interesting dialogue between largely you and Cathy – glad to see a somewhat open discussion. You both seem very ernest and knowledgeable.
This is a debate that is perhaps coming into the church due to the influencial para-church homeschool conferences, etc. Thinking such as Dominion Theology, Christian Reconstructionism has a totally different look on things, we need to be sure we understand these schools of thought fully and their implications. I found it interesting that one of your readers distanced themselves from Vision Forum’s definition of Dominion Theology. It is important to test everything by the scripture but also to stay focused on the main things of salvation by grace alone. Anyway, wanted to encourage the open dialogue, often I have seen divisive comments on these issues – they are so personal to people perhaps, but i think they become too important, and the theology soon becomes as important as the scripture itself. – eliza
Eliza – “the influencial para-church homeschool conferences, etc. Thinking such as Dominion Theology, Christian Reconstructionism has a totally different look on things”
Yes, and I love it!
If you’ll notice, I only quoted one Dominion theologian. The rest was direct quotes from scripture and reference to scriptural persons. So I recommend you deal with that. Please keep in mind that in a sense all Protestant teaching is “para-church” since the Protestant movement began more or less *ex-comminicant.* Certainly Wycliff and Luther were translating Scripture into local languages outside the Papal bull.
“It is important to test everything by the scripture”
I totally agree, and would ask you to do the same, and deal with the Scriptures and not “.org” banners in your mind’s eye.
Respectfully yours.
To clarify, I love that Dominion Theology has a “totally differnt look on thing” than the non-scriptural but highly popular teachings that Christ fails in history, and the earth is never redeemed.
Lori,
My point was to encourage you that the dialogue was open and healthy. Not to spark another discussion.
Eliza
I understood you.
For what’s it’s worth, thanks.
“We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.”
1 Tim 1:8-11
We must receive and serve our companion very well. How many ink slinger are there in the family?