The Anti-Educational Effects of Public Schools

The Anti-Educational Effects of Public Schools is  perhaps one of the most well-articulated and creative looks at some of the problems of compulsory public education I’ve ever read. (Hat tip to Lori!)

“Indeed, some of the teachers there are genuinely competent and interested in the advancement of their students. It is just that virtually all the incentives are wrong…The very environment of a public school brings with it severe consequences — some unintended, others intended perhaps in part — that turn it into the virtual antithesis of true education.”

Even mentioning public schooling in a negative light evokes deep emotion in many, reinforcing the ingrained loyalty placed in us by the system itself.

This article actually discusses several angles you may have not even considered before (what is “school spirit” really about anyway?) and the author (though not a Christian that I can tell) does a superb job of candidly exposing some of the downfalls of public education.

His conclusion?  Deep budget cuts to the educational system could be the best thing to ever happen in our country to the real pursuit of education.

Worth the read!  I’d love to hear your thoughts when you’re done.

The Anti-Educational Effects of Public Schools

Think Outside the Classroom

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Are you a homeschooling mother who worries that you aren’t “doing enough”? Are you thinking of homeschooling but feel afraid that you aren’t qualified? If so, read more…

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233 Responses to “The Anti-Educational Effects of Public Schools”

  1. It seems to me that he was nitpicking. Most of those rules are necessary to maintain reasonable order and safety. I registered my daughter for public high school this morning (after a decade of home schooling her and another decade before that with her okder sisters) and I am GLAD they have lots of rules – including a stricter dress code that is just as strict as our own. My confidence is that God is not confined to our home school and that he will be with her every step of the way.

  2. Amanda says:

    “Once the irrational, punitive norms delegitimize all norms in the eyes of many, even the natural laws, which make all societal cooperation possible, are not immune from the resulting reaction.”

    Brilliant. I’m always excited to see the Christian-libertarian overlap on the Venn diagram of society. Thanks for posting, Kelly.

  3. Public School kills souls says:

    “in 2005 the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals found in Fields v. Palmdale School District “that the Meyer-Pierce right [of parents to direct the upbringing of their children] does not exist beyond the threshold of the school door.” http://parentalrightsus.org/palmdale/

    And there’s this: “On April 27, 2005 David Parker was arrested and thrown in jail by school officials over his insistence of being notified regarding his son in kindergarten being taught about homosexual relationships by adults.”
    http://ww…w.facebook.com/#!/note.php?note_id=401023381431&id=779282644&ref=share

  4. Public School kills souls says:

    Here’s another article on the Palmdale case: http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47195

    A friend of mine enroled her son into a public kindergarten. Her teacher mentioned one day that they were going to have a “good touch, bad touch” class soon. Mom asked to know when so she could keep her son out, preferring that that issue be addressed in the family. Some days later she received a permission slip about the class. But it was a fake – the date had been changed to reflect a future time, when in fact they’d already had it w/out parental consent. At least she didn’t get arrested for it like David Parker was. This was in Kindergarten in a small southern city.

    “My school is different” is a gross lie, of the same caliber as “You can’t get pregnant your first time or on any month beginning w/ a ‘J.'” All public schools are State schools, w/ State first, God after hours. If you condone and endorse this God is NOT with you.

    There is NO neutrality: “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.” (Matthew 12:30)

    Public School scatters. Anyone who endorses public school scatters.

    • Luci says:

      PSKS: A quick note about the “permission slip” issue. I often wonder if parents realize just how ineffective such methods are for those who would rather teach their kids about sensitive subjects at home. Sure, parents can have their children removed from the classroom for an hour or so … but the child will, in my experience, inevitably hear about what was taught from his or her classmates. My parents took me out of part of the sex-ed curriculum when I was in fifth grade, but I still found out everything that the other students learned just from conversations on the playground and the bus. Limiting portions of curricula to those children whose parents have given permission — or at least to those whose parents haven’t explicitly objected — may make parents feel a little more secure, but it doesn’t keep children from learning *exactly* what their peers were taught!

  5. I love this quote from the article:

    “I realized early on that, were I only to study what was assigned and do what was expected of me, I would only achieve at the level of the average student — that is, not much.”

    We started my son in public school kindergarten last year and very quickly realized that it was not right for our family. After a few months we withdrew him and we have been homeschooling (and loving it) ever since!!

  6. Krissa says:

    But there are many parents who are unable to home school for a variety of reasons. Where would you like those children to be educated?

    • Public School kills souls says:

      Krissa, there are options. The church should be stepping up more, but mostly parents should be taking responsiblity more. To answer your question, I’d have to say it depends on the situation. But what the author doesn’t mention, is the funding for public schools – taxes. This is forced wealth redistribution. It is legalized theft. That is never the answer. And while Jesus preached about care for the poor, it was NEVER through statism, and He condemned theft and Scripture abuse (and it takes real abuse of Scripture to go from “education is good” to “we should force people to pay for the education of other people’s children”)

      So your first question should be, “Is it ok for me to forcibly extract money (via gov’t, or maffia, or personal force) from my neighbors to pay for something of value to me?”

      • Patty says:

        Education is optional. “Formal” education as a necessity is a myth and therefore finding a safe home for the children during a parent’s workday is all that is necessary. And yes, the church AND the community in general should step up. Parents should also consider the FULL cost of a child, including educating the way the parents believe they want the child educated BEFORE choosing to have sex. Raising a baby costs more than diapers. What’s more important? I say we sell their souls when we feed them to strangers for education. My children’s souls are worth more than 6 hours of “free” childcare 180 days a year…

  7. Luci says:

    Although it’s an interesting article, I take issue with many of the author’s points. From his comments on metal detectors and the “war on drugs,” it’s clear that he’s a devoted libertarian; while I sympathize with many of his complaints, I have a hard time agreeing that some of the measures he described aren’t necessary. I graduated from my public high school in 2004; I wrote about my 13 years in public school for LAF here:

    http://www.ladiesagainstfeminism.com/training-children/but-what-about-the-%E2%80%9Cgood%E2%80%9D-public-schools/

    To start, it’s difficult to write about one’s experiences in education without someone suggesting, “But that’s just an anomaly!” or “Well, your experience was just different.” We have to look at the broader trends in society. Thus, I’m hesitant to criticize the article on the grounds of his experience being “anomalous,” but I feel that I have to point out what’s wrong with his piece.

    I think the analysis of “school spirit” was accurate, albeit somewhat nitpicky. While we had “spirit week” prior to homecoming, that didn’t ever take up too much time.

    I vehemently disagreed with the part about discipline. One of the major problems in today’s public schools is the LACK of discipline! My mother, who still works at the high school I attended, has to deal with students cursing at her literally every single day. And there is absolutely nothing she can do. She told me about one meeting with a teacher with whom she works, a student, the student’s mother, and the principal of the school. The student was failing English, and the teacher wanted to meet with the student’s mother (a single parent) to see what they could work out so that the student could graduate. Not only did the student tell his mother repeatedly to “Shut up,” the mother also said that she wouldn’t impose discipline at home because she was worried for her physical safety. The student was incredibly disrespectful and used profanity throughout the meeting. And there was nothing – nothing – that the teacher or principal could do.

    With situations like these becoming ever more common, teachers and administrators can’t simply assume that students will be as well-behaved as the author. One of my former teachers told me that it appeared that the patients were running the asylum. That, I think, is a more accurate picture of our nation’s schools.

    What bothered me in particular was: “There were no metal detectors there, fortunately…” — Quite frankly, I WISH my school had had metal detectors. Metal detectors could have stopped people from bringing in knives or guns.

    While the author criticizes his school’s requirement that students arriving later during the day sign in, he fails to realize that there could be a real purpose in that regulation. Yes, it imposes a burden on those students who are “good” and can discipline themselves. But weigh that burden against the popular notion that the school needs to know what’s going on and where its students are. We hold schools accountable for bullying, harassment, and the like.

    Yes, restrictions might inhibit student mobility throughout the day. But the author doesn’t seem to realize that such regulations are as much about keeping people out as keeping students in class. Example: at my school, we had several entrances and not enough money for security cameras, so there were several incidents where drug dealers were actually able to come into the school via one of the back entrances and meet up with “clients.”

    I question the veracity of the portion about TI-83 calculators. I would be extremely surprised if the school *required* its students to purchase a calculator FROM the school. That doesn’t appear to have legal grounds. Yes, there are schools where it’s required to own such a calculator — and schools often offer discounted prices because one can buy them in bulk. (Mine was $80 rather than $110ish at Staples.) I’d question the legality of *forcing* students to buy calculators from the school itself.

    The author writes: “I continue to entertain the hope that even one of the states will find it necessary to institute deep cuts to public schools and that, under financial pressures, some of the worst elements of those schools will be the ones to go. Then we would find that the level of general education would not decline; indeed, it would increase.”

    But what elements should go?? Taking out “school spirit week” exercises or requirements that students sign in and out wouldn’t be very effective as schools wouldn’t save much money simply by eliminating those items. Yes, there are certainly line items in public schools that could be eliminated with little or no effect on the quality of education they offer. But I fear that cost-cutting measures would, all too often, eliminate those elements that keep people like my mother physically safe.

    So what’s the answer? I think that the author should look to John Gatto’s analysis of the origin and purpose of public schools. I would suggest that he re-evaluate his libertarian commitments in light of Mr. Gatto’s evidence, and perhaps rethink whether it’s the very foundation of public schools that’s the problem. What he points out as issues are simply window dressing.

    To sum up: I believe that there are serious problems with modern public schools. I certainly won’t disagree with the author’s contention that many activities in schools simply waste time. I completely agree with his argument that public schools often inhibit educational development in students. I think that the teacher’s union is one of the most insidious, anti-educational groups in the country.

    But I think he’s wrong about the rest.

    PS: Good data on the state of discipline and the quality of education in public schools can be found in these articles:

    On students in college lacking any ability to write: http://collegepuzzle.stanford.edu/?p=703)

    On civic education: http://www.city-journal.org/html/12_3_the_civic.html

    Nan Stein, “Bullying or Sexual Harassment – The Missing Discourse of Rights in an Era of Zero Tolerance,” 45 Ariz. L. Rev. 783 (2003)

    Sherry A. Everett and James H. Price, “Students’ perceptions of violence in the public schools: The metLife survey,” 17 Journal of Adolescent Health 345 (1995)

    Department of Education, “Violence in U. S. Public Schools: 2000 School Survey on Crime and Safety” (2004), available here: http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2004/2004314.pdf

    Russel J. Skiba and Reece L. Peterson, “School discipline at a crossroads: From zero tolerance to early response,” 66 Exceptional Children 335 (2000); available here: http://www.wce.wwu.edu/Depts/SPED/Forms/Kens%20Readings/Violence/Vio%20School%20discipline%20at%20a%20crossroads%20Skiba%202000.pdf

    • Word Warrior says:

      Luci,

      ” would suggest that he re-evaluate his libertarian commitments in light of Mr. Gatto’s evidence, and perhaps rethink whether it’s the very foundation of public schools that’s the problem. What he points out as issues are simply window dressing.”

      Totally agree.

      Part of my intent in posting the article was the fact that few are willing to dive right to the source of the problem (it seems too extreme to them) without first being made aware of different problem areas and then unraveling those back to the foundational problems.

      In other words, I think he made some valid, albeit nit picky points that many haven’t given thought to that could spark an evaluation of the whole subject. Make sense?

    • Public School kills souls says:

      Luci, I would like to address something (that has already come up), and that is making claims against a writer that the writer didn’t say.

      You say, “I question the veracity of the portion about TI-83 calculators. I would be extremely surprised if the school *required* its students to purchase a calculator FROM the school.”

      But the author made NO such claim. He claimed that they were required to buy that exobitantly priced calculator, and that calculator was sold in the school bookstore. He made NO claim that they were required to purchase it from the school bookstore.

      • Public School kills souls says:

        But I would like to say that I agree w/ much of what you write, esp noting the philosophical origins of public schooling!

      • Luci says:

        PSKS: Thanks for pointing that out. I read “…which all students were required to purchase at exorbitant prices as a result of an exclusive contract between Texas Instruments and the school.” and thought that meant they had to buy them *from* the school. The author’s statement, “The calculator thieves would then sell the calculators at far below the school’s monopoly bookstore price.” suggested to me that the school bookstore had a monopoly and students had to buy them from the bookstore. Do you see what I mean? I really hope that wasn’t the case, but the word “monopoly” jumped out to me! 🙂

        Kelly: I think you’re absolutely right! 🙂 I’m sorry if my comment came across as harsh or too nitpicky of his nitpicky-ness. 🙂 (How many times can I use the word nitpicky? LOL!) I was a little frustrated while reading because it seemed like he got so far in detailing the extent to which public school stifle creativity … but then he didn’t go quite far enough in realizing the extent of the problem. I really hope this does spark some interest in looking at the underpinnings of public schools. (Perhaps interested folks will watch the video you posted on Gatto & state-controlled consciousness!)

        Blessings,
        Luci

        • Public School kills souls says:

          Luci, ah yes, now I see how you got that impression. I understood it to be an arrangement that I had seen w/ other companies, like where Pepsico pays a school district to be the exclusive vendor of soft drinks in the school (which wouldn’t forbid students from bringing their own Coke to school from home). So it was a school wide monopoly, but not a market-wide monopoly. Hence, to me it spoke of convenience, as in, if your teacher caught you w/out a calculator he could penalize you, so you had to go buy one, in which case the bookstore was the only source handy – legal source that is. But on any other day of school you could have a calculator purchased from anywhere, as long as it was the school-mandated version.

          However, it is possible that TI did contract to sell through school bookstores only, but I’m almost certain I saw them at regular electronics stores when I was in middle and high school (I’m probably close to the author’s age). If that is not the case, then he used the word monopoly too loosely, for the sake of rhetorical flourish.

  8. PSKS, those are mighty harsh words in a blanket statement. Has anyone yet taught you of the logical fallacy of over-generalization or perhaps the “poisoning the well” fallacy?

    We love home schooling, too. We’re about to graduate our 4th student. It’s just not the end-all-be-all answer to everything.

    • Public School kills souls says:

      Haha! Yes, quite! What a relief they don’t apply.

      • Public School kills souls says:

        VK “It’s just not the end-all-be-all answer to everything.” Funny, I never made that statement. What was that you were saying about logical fallacies? 😉

  9. I’m having a hard time deciding where to start, so I won’t ;). Great article.

    I will say I cringe every time I see those taped lines along the floors of an elementary school. My husbands early work life was in law enforcement, and the first thing he said, very innocently, when he saw them at our local ps was “that’s exactly what the intake facility looks like at the jail”. That bothers me tremendously, that our two major government institutions, both of which are failing at their missions, are so similar. I get that squeemy feeling that I’ve learned to recognize as a little nudge from the Holy Spirit going “heads up”, if not “no.way.”.

    • Melissa says:

      Nice comparison Cottage Child!

    • Amanda says:

      When we see a school bus my 6 year old will almost always say “there goes a jail bus.”

      • Jennifer says:

        So because children naturally see school as a pain sometimes, we’re supposed to compare this to a sign from God? Some of these posts are increasingly irritating, reminding me of the “Santa spelled differently says ‘Satan'” statements.

        • Jennifer, I would invite you to reread…your reply had nothing to do with original statement. Perhaps I don’t understand?

          • Jennifer says:

            You compared it to jail by appearance, then someone else picked up on that and said her kid called it a “jail bus”. You guys seemed to think these were valid arguments.

            • Well, Jennifer, they do look like jails, set up very much like them, in fact. And if you’re familiar with the administrative laws of many public schools, parents rights stop at the front door, and children are by default under the laws of the school. They have no rights, like jail. It has nothing to do with whether or not school is a pain or if Santa is Satan. It’s an entirely valid argument, based on evidence. Not that it can’t be disagreed with, but that’s what I mean by “insult”, to address our other conversation.

              • Jennifer says:

                I found those particular comparisons loose and irritating; I don’t think saying so is an insult. I’ve seen far more fiery and nasty comments around this board, unaddressed except by those who disagree with them. Thanks for giving a more solid example; in general I think your arguments are compelling in this matter.

              • Public School kills souls says:

                More than the appearances are similar: “The Story of Two Buses”
                http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north278.html

                “Schools are run by the government to teach children how to make a living. Jails are run by the government to teach people how to stop stealing. Here is a major difference. “Do they teach prisoners how to make a good living?” your son asks. No, you tell him. The prison teaches them to obey.”
                —Much like the school system.

                “‘the difference is, the government pays for a place where bad people teach other bad people how to steal without getting caught, but in school, the government pays good people to teach children how to be good citizens and vote. So, the bad people learn how to steal from the good people without voting, and the good people learn how to steal from each other by voting. Is that how it works?’

                That’s how it works. Both systems use buses to take the students to school. But the colors are different.”

  10. Amber says:

    One thing I like that he pointed out is that if funding were to be cut to this system, the system would likely be more sucessful at educating. We don’t need all the “fluff” to educate children.
    Sports most definitely should be a community based thing and not a school based thing. Cutting coaches salaries alone would help substantially on the national debt.
    With how much debt we are in as a nation, cutting education budgets should be a no brainer, even if only by 50%.

  11. Kristen says:

    Well, that’s why I homeschool. Even if half of he said were a legitimate argument I have to ask myself… why would I want to place my innocent child in that situation? Metal detectors in high schools? Just because the kids can’t take their guns in with them, they’re still the same kids (criminals) out looking for violence. It’s insane, and people choose to put their precious children in classrooms with these people. And that’s just the tip of the iceberg. I admit I am a bit of a sheltering parent, but I just can’t imagine willingly putting my child in a situation like the one he described.

  12. Krissa says:

    Saying that parents and churches should step up is no answer, I’m afraid. Public schools exist because many parents cannot educate their children at home, for whatever reasons.

    In the area of “fluff,” I have to disagree. Art, creative writing, sports – these are all very important areas for young people. It is sad that MORE funding isn’t available. Obesity is often helped by the advent of sports programs. [I do agree that high salaries for coaches are not helpful, but I would prefer those salaries to go to hard-working teachers.]

    I am very very very happy to pay taxes to educate young people. It is the very best use of my taxes. I do more than that, I volunteer and donate to our public schools. It is not theft, this is such a foolish way to look at things in my opinion! Pennywise and pound foolish. These children are ALL of our futures.

    Blessings.

    • wordwarrior says:

      Per the pingback below this comment, I would challenge you, Krissa, to fully carry out your logic and thoughts about this subject.

      I am forced to pay for your child’s education. You may find the public school system acceptable for your children, which is your decision. But what if I vehemently disagree with the way “our future” is being educated and therefore find it offensive and unconstitutional to support financially? (The question of parents who “can’t” homeschool is an issue, but choosing the wrong solution never solves the real problem.)

      To make it more personal, how do you feel about being forced to financially support abortion? Or (fill in the blank with activity you don’t agree with). We ALL agree that education is good. We don’t all agree that public schooling is a good education. More money has NOT proven better education and it is faulty on so many levels that money has nothing to do with it.

      So aside from the question of whether a Christian parent can disciple his children in the Lord AND simulataneously place them under an 8-hour a day regimen in an institution that denies Christ is Lord, there still remains the ethical question of forcing citizens to fund a system they disagree with.

  13. […] we’re discussing compulsory education… August 31, 2010 // 0 Check out today’s post on Generation Cedar. And read the […]

  14. Kristina says:

    After working at a public elementary, middle, and high school, I have found that the rules are established for the rule breakers, but also for control (whether that be good or bad). No matter how restrictive the rules are, their purpose is to protect the students. Many aspects of this article really made me evaluate my views about public school from a different angle. Believe me, I have mulled over these issues while my four kids were attending public school, and since they have been educated at home.

    I can most definitely tell you that kids left with no time or placement boundaries will have sexual relations at school, sell drugs, and participate in physical violence and bullying. I agree that it resembles an assylum run by patients. However, we have to remember that we live in a corrupt world full of sinners. We cannot entrust or children’s minds, bodies, and souls to a tainted system and expect them to escape untainted.

    I know there are many parents who, for whatever reason, cannot take full responsibility for their children’s education. However, there are many who can and won’t. We are easily sucked into the lies our culture feeds us about happiness and success, ours and our children’s. Homeschooling does not come without sacrifices. Neither does is come without peace. The peace of knowing what our kids are learning, what they are hearing, with whom they are spending their time, and where their hearts lie.

    I agree that this author was “nitpicky” in his approach, but he is absolutely correct about the depth of influence and control the public school system has over the youth in this nation.

    We must do what we can to first prepare our children to be salt and light in truth before we turn them loose in this sinful world.

    In Christ-

  15. Smiles says:

    We asked ourselves this same question a few years back. What if we can’t homeschool? But we found out we could if we changed our life to do it.

    Unfortunately, our culture has developed options so that we feel we have options. Home school, private school and public school are the options we think we are given. Because public school or private school is available, we as parents think we have it as an option. Just because the options are there, we feel this does not mean they are ones we are supposed to be following or choosing for our family.

    This option could also be applied to buying a car. We have many options. We could find an affordable and decent car that we can afford and pay cash for it. We can buy a decent and affordable car and take out a loan or borrow the money from somewhere else to pay for it. We can also go find a brand new car and pay cash for it. We can also buy a brand new car and take out a loan or borrow for it. All of these are options that we have in our culture today. But if we look to God’s Word to be our guide when we make a decision, what would His Word teach us is the best scenario. Well, what if we don’t have cash to buy a new car, then do the other options become options? What would be the best stewardship of your money? Could things be cut in our homes so we could start saving for a car so we can pay cash and not be in debt to any man. Could we as a family purpose to downsize so we could afford to eventually buy a car? If we do have a loan, can we purpose to pay on it and be faithful to pay it off as soon as possible. I use this only as an example.

    I do not believe in a legalistic Savior. But I do believe He gives us the best ways to follow in His Word. He gives us the best way to educate our little ones. He gives us the best way to handle our money. He gives us the best way to love our husbands and shepherd our families. He does not ever say, here is option 1, 2 and 3 – you choose the best way for your particular situation. He does say, here is what I know will work for your family. Come follow me, I will provide for you, if you will trust me.

    Now my husband and I needed to look at our lives and see what we needed to cut, add or rearrange so that life could be done the way He desired for us to do it. Us discipling, teaching, training, and educating our children is the very best for them. Now, what we can we do and what sacrifices can we make to make that happen?

    I say all of this because these are the exact questions my husband and I have been asking ourselves now for 3 years. We have made drastic changes in our lifestyle to follow the teachings of Scripture. I have to tell you, we have been the ones extremely blessed. The Lord has given us back the heartstrings of our children because we were willing to make the hard decisions. Bring mommy home, get a smaller home, drive beat up cars, not eating out anymore, going to the park instead of spending money that we could be saving, cutting out cable, buying clothes as second hand stores. On and on it goes. There are ways to make this possible, even if the situation involves a single mom. I have seen moms who are in that situation ask the Lord to help them to homeschool and He has provided situations for them that work.

    Each situation can be unique and the Lord can show us unique ways to answer the cries of our heart. The Lord is a creative God.

    These choices are hard ones to make. Our family does not understand why we do these things. But we are pleasing our Heavenly Father and He is glorified when we choose to follow Him wholeheartedly. I don’t say any of this flippantly. I know the sacrifice it takes to make these decisions. My husband is a teacher in a private Christian school, I was once a “certified teacher” by the state and taught also in a Christian school. We were both educated by the public schools. Now we homeschool. – we have seen first hand the heartache that comes from not following the Lord’s desires for our families. My prayer is that my husband and I continue to make the necessary sacrifices we need to make to bring our little ones up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. 🙂 Our prayer is also that others too open God’s Word and find out what He desires. His Word is sufficient to answer these hard questions.

  16. We’re beginning homeschool with my oldest (3 years old) on Monday! I cannot tell you how joyful I am (especially when reading things like this) that my husband and I have made this decision and are blessed that it was able to be any “easy” decision for our family. We’re so excited!

  17. Melissa says:

    Kelly, it is most likely not nice of me to stir the pot but…

    Most everyone can homeschool. It is a matter of conviction and understanding the truth. The only situation that I can think of at this point that would keep a person from being able to easily take on homeschooling, would be a single parent (not by choice of divorce but death of your spouse). If you downsize your home sell your car with that huge payment, and Mom- stay at home, (I wish I knew how to bold the stay at home and not work part) you just might find that homeschooling is doable. I am just weary of hearing that people CAN’T homeschool. YES, most can. The choices people make in their life keep them from homeschooling or even the possibility. But as mentioned in previous posts we are not bound to our past choices or our present circumstances. You can change things. All it takes is a little courage, some thick skin 😉 (for all those who will think you are crazy) and prayer. I found a quote this past Sunday: “All believers are not called to be foreign missionaries, but they should struggle with the possibility.” Clifford Clark

    We could just about substitute anything in that first few words, like homeschooling, or foster care, etc. The truth is most people who don’t homeschool and advocate public school are just not fully convicted or educated about homeschooling.

    • I’ve known single moms who homeschool. It’s not easy, and often requires outside help from a church community, but I’ve seen it done. If it’s where God wants your family he can make it happen.

    • Jennifer says:

      Melissa, I am fully educated and convicted about my own public school choices; I don’t have to know everything there is to know about homeschooling to make a good decision. You offered quite a tidy package of options, but you left out children with special needs. I was such a child; I’m bad at math, my mother was never good enough at it to teach me all I needed to know, and my father works. Plus, I have natural learning disabilities. So, who to teach me?

      My public school teachers were Godly people and I’ll be forever grateful to them; not all teachers are like them, by any means. But what I’M weary, and wary, of is people telling me that you can homeschool if you just check several things off your list, even majorly important things the family might need. Had my parents listened to things like that, my education process would have been miserable and I wouldn’t have had the myriad experience of school I loved so much and would repeat again if I could.

      • Melissa says:

        Jennifer you sound like you are singing my song. I too struggled in math and was behind my whole public school experience. I had to have my mother sit in on Pre-Algebra with me in the classroom so that she could understand it and reteach it to me at home. I was also dyslexic and did not learn how to fluently read until I was in the 8th grade. So I wish I could even relate to those excuses but sorry I can’t. Even after all of that I homeschool quite proudly 3 kids at this point. They are learning and excelling. I almost feel as though you are saying that your trouble will be generational and that is your reason. Is that accurate? Or did I misread?

        • Jennifer says:

          Those are not “excuses”, Melissa, they’re simple facts. Since I’m not good at math, I wouldn’t be good at teaching it. I don’t need you to relate to them for them to be valid for me and my family.

  18. Margaret says:

    That was really interesting. I see things through a different lense than the author.

    I would have said the complete *reverse* about discipline. Kudos to him for being a teenager who just wanted a quiet place to study. In my highschool (and it was not a “bad” school, and served a mix of “mountain people” and wealthy suburbanites), people looking for a quiet, out of the way place were most likely looking for a place to make out, to drink, deal, or sell drugs. I do not think letting these kids loose is the answer to boring free periods. I would think arranging things so that there were not “free” periods, and giving them options for activities (take an enjoyable elective course) might work better.

    I would have preferred stricter discipline in my highschool experience. The majority of classes I had were mostly a waste, because the first 10-15 minutes, and the last 10-15 minutes, the teacher spent trying to get the class settled and quiet. This was alleviated somewhat when we had a 4 period day, and the classes were longer.

    But the school spirit part! Oh my, he was right on. Between 9th and 11th grade (before I left school for independant study), soooooo much of every day was *wasted*. Not just with stupid pep rallys. But with announcement interruptions, members of various sports teams coming and going because sports took precedence over academics, and the like.

  19. PSKS: “All public schools are State schools, w/ State first, God after hours. If you condone and endorse this God is NOT with you. There is NO neutrality: “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.” (Matthew 12:30) Public School scatters. Anyone who endorses public school scatters.”

    This is the blanket statement I was referring to. Are you saying that God would never ever direct a Christian parent to place his or her student in a public school? You are certainly entitled to that opinion, but I would disagree. I’ll try to blog about it later, but my grandbaby is visiting this afternoon, so I may not get to it.

    In the meantime, I realize that behind most strong statements is a story. Could you give us a piece of your personal tale to help us understand your passion against public schooling? I love to hear different perspectives, even if I don’t share them.

    Yes, I am a diehard home school mom of nearly 20 years. I have been ministering to home school families through writing and speaking for nearly that whole time. I never thought I would send one of my 10 kids to public school, but I firmly believe it was God’s guidance for this child this year and I am at complete peace with it. Lydia was concerned at first about blowing my reputation at a devoted home school mom, but I laughed and told her that this is not about me at all. It’s about what is right for her, no matter what people think of me. God cannot and will not leave her alone — the Unseen King accompanies his ambassador on assignment. God is not absent from this school, because he is there with her and with the other Christian students and teachers. I reminded her of Psalm 23 in the van this morning, as well as that she is an ambassador and she smiled. She has her heart on eternity and excellence. I don’t believe we are wasting the last decade of our home school investment in her.

    Could I be wrong? Sure! Time will tell! But experience has lent its testimony, too. My older four daughters all started community college at age 16 or 17 — no regrets there either. They have told me it has only strengthened their appreciation for their Christian upbringing by seeing the stark contrast between light and dark. I am often in total awe of what I learn from them about the Lord, about trusting him and stepping out in faith and obedience. Such gratitude flows from my heart, and all I can say is “Thank you, Jesus! Thank you, Jesus!”

    Blessings and peace,
    Virginia Knowles

    P.S. I blog (sometimes not very often) at…
    http://www.VirginiaKnowles.blogspot.com
    http://www.ComeWearyMoms.blogspot.com
    http://www.StartWellHomeSchool.blogspot.com
    http://www.ContinueWellHomeSchool.blogspot.com
    http://www.FinishWellHomeSchool.blogspot.com

    • Public School kills souls says:

      VK, I knew exactly what you were referring to. And even if my comment was a blanket statement, that would not make it a fallacy (even though there is a fallacy called “blanket statement”).

      I was taking Scripture and applying it to life, specifically public schooling. That’s called submitting your life and philosophy to God. I specifically applied Matt 12:30. So even if I were incorrect in my application of Scripture, it’s no more a “blanket statement” fallacy than insisting “Thou shalt not commit adultury” to ALL marriages, and insisting that ALL adultury is disobedient to God.

      Other Scriptures:
      Thou shalt not steal (not even for education, not even if it’s legal – remember, abortiong and adultury are also legal)

      Or how about “Thou shalt have no other gods before me” – the Public school was founded by Humanist, who place the Human mind (individual and collective) OVER God’s Law. That is idoloatry. And you are sending your child into it.

      “impress them(God’s LAWS) on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up.” Deut 6:7, parenthetical note mine for clarity – Public school omits God’s Laws from education for at least 7 hours a day.

      “Do not be misled: Bad company corrupts good character.” 1 Cor 15:33 You could also substiture “pagan company” or “Marxist/socialist company.”

      “Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked or stand in the way of sinners or sit in the seat of mockers.” Psalm 1:1

      Public school is undoubtedly an institutional mockery of God (God does NOT rule over history, over science, over literature, over sex ed there). It IS the way of sinners, under the counsel of the wicked. And you are endorsing this, adding money to the PS (and teachers’ unions!) coffers.

      For those parents who don’t yet know, your Public school’s funding is only partially guaged by property taxes – it is also affected by the number of students enrolling. So if you take your child out of that school, you have cut their funding, and if you enroll your child, you increase their funding, and also take part in the theft. You are joining with the theif(Psalm 50:18).

      You do not need “time” or personal testimonies. You have Scripture. Scripture that says that the PARENT is supposed to be training the child, not the State. The State is only the sword-bearer against evil, not educator. You have become a Socialist.

      I appreciate your past advocation of Public schooling, but this is like a man who has advocated marital fidelity for 15 years, but for all the wrong reasons (it’s good for the family, it cuts down on STDs, whatever), not God’s Law. And now, after 15 years of marital fidelity, has decided that he is going to go start dating again. After all, it’s not illegal or anything. Maybe he even has his wife’s approval.

      Your daughter (I have the impression you daughter wants to do this) is as misguided as the young girl who insists on engaging in “evengelistic” dating. It’s a miserable mistake. And it’s disobedient.

      • Public School kills souls says:

        Beg your pardon! “I appreciate your past advocation of Public schooling” SHOULD read “I appreciate your past advocation of homeschooling.”

  20. Public School kills souls says:

    Why I am passionate against public schooling:

    Psalm 1 ” 1 Blessed is the man
    who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked
    or stand in the way of sinners
    or sit in the seat of mockers.
    2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD,
    and on his law he meditates day and night.”

    “Open my eyes that I may see wonderful things in your law.19 I am a stranger on earth; do not hide your commands from me. My soul is consumed with longing for your laws at all times.” Psalm 119:18-20

    “I have chosen the way of truth;
    I have set my heart on your laws.” Psalm 119:30

    “I hate and abhor falsehood but I love your law.” Psalm 119:163

    “If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.” John 15:10

    “This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome” 1 John 5:2,3

    I am passionately against Public School because I am passionate about God’s Word and God’s Laws, and He has spoken in no uncertain terms about theft, teaching (who, how, and where), about what constitutes truth, and about discipleship. I hate to see little children discipled by Pagan, Humanist, Marxists for 7 or more hours a day, and part of a theiving system.

    “But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.” Matt 18:6

  21. Tiffany says:

    I have to admit that the part about school spirit struck a nerve with me at first…because I was one of those students being “cheered on” at the pep rallies (but in a private school). Plus, I am a big college football fan! I was worried the author might be saying that sports are bad…but thankfully I read to the end of that section where he stated private funded sports teams are the better way to go. That got me thinking because we have decided we want to homeschool but we get nervous when we think about high school because what if our little boy is a great football player…then his career would be over. I’m hoping things change in the next 10-15 years so we don’t have to worry about that! (Although dad says he doesn’t want him to play football since it’s the same season as deer season!)I also started thinking that it’s not right for others to be paying for my own children to participate in sports. Depending on how many childrent the Lord blesses us with and our financial situation, organized sports may not even be in our future!

    And I also agreed with the part about how we should be promoting children to find creative (and ethical) ways to make money. Schools do not promote this enough so instead we end up with many men who get to the age of 20-30 not really knowing how to support their family! A homeschooling family I know has children that want to start mowing lawns to make extra money. They have the flexibility to do this in their environment. Unfortunately, in public schoold you don’t have much time for that between going to school and homework. (yes, there are breaks during the school year but it’s still not enough time to establish a business).

    Just some of my thoughts!

    • Kelly L says:

      Tiffany,
      We live in Las Vegas, and we have the right for our HS’d children to participate (or at least try out) for any sport in any school they are zoned for. Our daughter plays softball, and when she is high school aged, we will take her to try outs for our zoned school.
      Maybe it is the same for you guys? If not, maybe you can start to loby your lawmakers to make it so.

  22. PSTS: I am a CURRENT advocate of home schooling. And even more than that I am a CURRENT advocate of following the Lord’s gracious leading and also of respecting the choices that other Christians make as they are seeking to follow that leading. Those things will never change. God is still with me. I haven’t left him and he will never ever leave me. Nor am I a second-class Christian. I love the Lord with all my heart. But I don’t expect you to understand that. Nor do I need you to. But you may want to check how you are coming across in your tone toward others if you want to win them. “Pleasant words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul and healing to the bones” and “Pleasant words promote instruction.”

    And there is a huge difference between missionary dating and going to public school. And my daughter has no intention of getting involved in any romantic relationships in high school. She will quickly tell you that is for adults.

    Could you please tell me how old your children are? Do you have a blog we can read or do you prefer to remain anonymous?

    May God bless you richly and abundantly!

    • Public School kills souls says:

      Dear VK,I never suggested that you are a “second-class citizen,” just as I also never suggested that homeschooling is “the end-all-be-all answer to everything.” You’re getting caught up in tangentials: suggestions of things I neither said nor implied (and straw-men arguments as the case may be); what our life stories are; what ages my children are; whether I have a blog; what my name is. You’re shaking every tree but the one w/ the fruit (in terms of debate): the tree w/ the good fruit and the life, the Word of God. You’re not dealing w/ Scripture.

      I have the impression based on your link “…keep it humble,” and your suggestion “you may want to check how you are coming across in your tone toward others if you want to win them,” that you take issue w/ my tone. Please do not mistake my *urgency* for condecention. I am motivated by love, primarily love for God’s Word and Law, and secondarily by love for people. The way I see it, public school is a burning building. It’s about to catch your house on fire. Your daughter’s and your spirits are in danger of being badly scorched, or worse. I am desperate to shake you out of your sleep (false sense of security). I am screaming, “wake up!” for your protection. If I have to, I am willing to use a verbal bucket of cold water on your head.

      The reason I compared your daughter’s entrance into Public School as missionary (“evangelistic”) dating is because I was assuming the highest motive of her – being salt and light. If that offends you, well, I’m befuddled, but I apologize. But being “salt and light” in the Public school is certainly as inappropriate and dangerous as missionary dating.

      I get that you think you have God’s blessing in this. But you’re wrong, and you’re in danger. God does not smile on well-intentioned disobedience to Him. (see the story of Uzzah and the Ark, 2 Samuel 6:6,7 and 2 Chron 13:9-11; see also King Saul sparing the best of the animals “for sacrifice” 1 Sam 15)

      Some people suggest that the Lord led them to public school. I have this impression of you (correct me if I’m wrong). But “‘The Lord told me’ is no substitute for ‘the Bible says’…this line of reasoning smacks of mysticism.” -Voddie Baucham, here: http://archive.constantcontact.com/fs026/1102459509708/archive/1103597570686.html

  23. Sisters — if you are still willing to call me that 🙂

    Perhaps this would be the appropriate time to post a link to a very relevant blog post I wrote last year:

    http://virginiaknowles.blogspot.com/2009/08/do-it-well-but-keep-it-humble.html

    Grace to you!
    Virginia

    • Word Warrior says:

      Virgina,

      I too, think there’s a difference in “being arrogant” (the topic of the post you linked to) and “being urgent” for the sake of something you believe to be wrong.

      I guess it’s obvious the offense should come to those who don’t agree that public schooling is a wrong choice, biblically speaking, for Christians. But for those who DO believe it’s a wrong choice, isn’t it most loving to try to warn and convince?

      As a comparison, Dave Ramsey makes a living “telling people how they wrongly spend their money and telling them how to live if they want to be financially free”. He uses strong words to make his points. Is it because he’s arrogant? Because he likes feeling superior? Because he wants to offend people?

      It comes from nothing more than his passion to see people use principles from Scripture to live a better life.

      This is where people like me and PSKP are coming from. It is not arrogance; it’s urgency, as she explained with the burning building metaphor.

      Now obviously, until you agree that PS is *wrong*, you’ll never quite understand the urgency. But perhaps considering the heart of the urgency will keep some of the offense at bay.

      Grace and love never contradict truth. Jesus spoke very harsh words in the name of love. People turned away. I am an advocate of speaking the truth in love. The issue here is not that the truth hasn’t been spoken in love; it’s that we disagree on the truth and that is found offensive, no matter how it is spoken.

      • Jennifer says:

        It’s incredible arrogance, Kelly. Not from you, but definitely from her.

        • Jennifer says:

          And yes, the issue here is definitely that the truth hasn’t been spoken in love. I was just on two other boards about this subject, and they both had kind, humble and just plain NORMAL-toned people there. I found their thoughts interesting and worthy.

  24. Krissa says:

    Kelly, I want to respond to this because I feel that you do not understand me.

    I pay for roads I’ll never use.
    I pay for those without health insurance to use the ER if their child is hurt.
    I pay for wars that I do not necessarily support.
    Why would I not pay for a society in which everyone – regardless of whether their parents have the capacity to home school them or not – can learn to read and write? It is my world also. Having educated citizens is important. That is the cost of living in a society.

    I happen to know of a family that cannot home school, for example. The mother suffers greatly from MS. There are days she cannot even move her arms. The father works two jobs, as he never finished high school. Their oldest children are both autistic, and one child has a hearing disability. And you would like her to home school too?

    No. It is not possible for everyone.

    • Hi Krissa – in the spirit of truth, you’re correct – it’s not perfectly possible for everyone to home school. I don’t see that as mitigating our striving for what is best.

      In an ideal circumstance, academic and religious training are learned in the context of home life and/or private family-minded Christian school. I would much rather have a circumstance in which my tax dollars funded direct assistance to families like you described (the exception, by the way, which is what welfare and charitable dollars should be directed to), than to the vast, impersonal, de-individualized sub-par “systems” that make up public schools. It would be cheaper and more effective.

      “I pay for roads I’ll never use.”….and for your trouble we have one of the best highway systems in the world

      “I pay for those without health insurance to use the ER if their child is hurt.”….and for your trouble, we have THE BEST healthcare system in the world, albeit with the help of many charity based hospitals who’s donors live The Word

      “I pay for wars that I do not necessarily support.” We have, inarguably, the strongest military in the world. We can debate the efficacy of our current engagement, and the intentions of the but not the result of our investment to date. As for tax dollars going to fund education to our military, I’d double it in a heart beat. Well-educated men who also practice honor sounds like a profound idea, just about now.

      When it comes to our public education system, however, the same claims cannot be made. For all the waste in government, it’s rare that any of the systems you mentioned hemorrhage money with as little return on investment as the public schools (prisons come close, which is another conversation). And yet, they maintain one of the strongest wealthiest lobbies – ironically, membership is compulsory for all educators (that’s just weird)- , with the interests of children being tertiary at best. I’m sorry, but continuing to fund an entity that is decidedly anti-family, pro-indoctrination, with marginal academic standards and that can’t produce even close to the prescribed result, is not an interest in educating the least among us. It degenerates quickly to a convenient way to occupy inconvenient people, and to make them grateful for the privilege of being underserved. And that is a WMD if I’ve ever seen one. JMHO.

  25. PSTS, did you actually read the blog article or just the title?
    You certainly do come across as condescending.

    Perhaps you would be sweeter if I were an unsaved heathen? I hope you don’t act like this with those who don’t know Jesus yet.

    “…but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. (1 Peter 3)

    Honey, I’m just not feelin’ the love here! Anyone else with me on this?

    Gotta go! My liitle grandguy is waiting for me to hold him!

  26. Deanna Laney says:

    I am referring to this comment by PSKS:
    Some people suggest that the Lord led them to public school. I have this impression of you (correct me if I’m wrong). But “‘The Lord told me’ is no substitute for ‘the Bible says’…this line of reasoning smacks of mysticism.” -Voddie Baucham

    To me, you and Voddie are getting very close to blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

    • Public School kills souls says:

      Dear DL, I’m not sure what your concern is, as you went into no detail nor provided any Scripture, but if it is any help, I will clarify that the only intention of that quote is to *stress* that there is no such thing as “special revelation” anymore. All inspiration is in the Bible, no one gets to add to it w/ the cozy suggestion of a private conversation w/ God that may very well *not* line up w/ true revelation, the Word of God. That is all the quote is talking about.

  27. Wow, PSKS, I was going to suggest that you chill but it already seems pretty icy here!

    Did you read my article yet?

    “If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.” James 1:5

    If God does not sometimes lead us individually in the application of his word, why are we told to ask for wisdom? We already have the word itself so that is not the thing being given. Don’t you ever ask him to guide your path and help you make the right decisions in matters that you might consider to be gray areas? I know this is a moot point for you since you already think it is black and white.

    Virginia

    • Public School kills souls says:

      VK, no, I haven’t read your posting. WW was kind enough to inform us that is was about arrogance, as I had suspected. You have shown far less regard for Scripture than I would expect and demand of someone who’s opinion I might seek, so I am not interested – why go to your site when there are so many Berean sites?

      Why yes, as a matter of fact, I think there are loads of gray areas, and I pray for God’s guidance, but it’s in areas where the options in question to consider are both already submitted to Scripture, such as “Do I marry this Christian man or another?” (this is only one possible example). Or for areas where God’s already revealed Word is unclear to me. But in both cases, I am seeking to be submitted to God’s Word, and not searching for a new, “special revelation,” Which was the point at hand in this quote.

  28. Krissa says:

    PSKS, the post is NOT about arrogance. I’m very much afraid that I cannot say the same about yours. You would do well to read Virginia’s wise post and ponder her words. To reply without knowing what you are replying to is not only foolhardy, it is indeed – arrogant.

    Cottage Child, I appreciate your thoughtful response. However it is one thing to work to fix the issues and waste you perceive in the schools [and each public school is different, I regret that we tend to lump them together], and it is another thing entirely to proclaim that they should be dismantled because everyone “must” home school. While I have seen evidence of excellent home schooling, I have in my many years seen much evidence of not very good home schooling. This is a fact.

    There is a lot of waste in the military – you are aware of this, I’m sure – and we certainly do not have the best healthcare system in the world – but these are other issues, and I bow out as I am busy with other concerns.

    • Public School kills souls says:

      OK, Krissa, thank you for the correction about the posting. But that still doesn’t help support my useage of time on her blog vs. someone else’s blog, when she constantly evades, dodges, and changes the subject. Paul commends holding up doctrine to the Scripture, she avoids this and talks about tangentials. It is not arrogance to say I prefer one teacher’s blog over hers. It’s discernment. It might not be the best discernment, true, but that doesn’t make it arrogance.

      Which is not to say that I’m immune to arrogance, but the fact that I haven’t read VK’s posting is no indigtment. If it’s important enough, and I should recommend relevant, she’ll share the gist of it here.

      We’re talking about submitting our lives to Christ. Can we please stick to Scripure?

    • Actually, Krissa, I’m implying public schools should be decentralized because as a system they’re dysfunctional and unconstitutional. I don’t have a problem with communities by vote electing to fund “public” schools. I just don’t think I should have to pay for it without redress – as in the option of taking my money elsewhere, when that elsewhere has proven more successful. We can debate that another time. I don’t know what other country has a better Health Care system than ours. If you can point it out to me, I’d be interested. Thanks for your response.

    • Public School kills souls says:

      Krissa – “To reply without knowing what you are replying to is not only foolhardy, it is indeed – arrogant.”

      After reading VK’s very lengthy post here, I’m shocked. Because to say that someone’s post is not about arrogance when it is is not only foolhardy, it is indeed – deceitful. You called me a fool and Kelly a liar.

      • PSKS: To sum up my post in a single word does not nearly or fairly convey my sentiments. I won’t even try to sum up your words. They tell so much more when taken together. I gladly took the time to read your words and even to ask if you had a blog. I like to know more about the people behind the initial words because I care. To me, there is a real and beloved person behind each screen name. You are so precious in his sight. He knows you even when I can’t. He knows your hurts and fears, your joys and your gifts. He knows your story from beginning to end, inside and out, and he’s not done with you yet. I am praying for a fresh and tender touch of the Holy Spirit on your life and mine.

        Virginia

        • Public School kills souls says:

          To say your post was not about arrogance just because it was about arrogance plus more, is like saying one’s (unsolicited) recipe “Cajun Beans” isn’t a bean dish, merely because it has beans *and* sausage, and the happy harmonious flavor they make when cooked for 5 hours – and poking at anyone who sugests that it’s a bean dish from the title, then from the ingredients list. It’s absurd.

          And I find it interesting that I point people to the Bible over and over again, and quote the Bible at length, and VK points people to her blogs over and over again, and quotes herself at length, but I’m the one who’s arrogant. Very interesting. Apparently tone is more important than substance. Duly noted.

          • I did not say my post was not about arrogance, just that this one word summary was no substitute for the courtesy of reading it. You seem agitated and unsettled in your spirit, PSKS. I have no wish for contention or to return insult for insult. I only ask God to pour out his blessings and refine your passion so that it reflects him more clearly. You are more than welcome to pray the same thing for me! 🙂

            • Public School kills souls says:

              I didn’t say you said your post wasn’t about arrogance – I said Krissa said your post was not about arrogance. Why do you insist on accusing me of saying things I haven’t said – this is the third time. Yes, I find this unsettling indeed.

            • Public School kills souls says:

              VK, I will admit that I do have an agitated spirit. I fully believe in God’s sovereignty, but that always includes sanctions against rebellion to His Law, both private sanctions and corporate sanctions. I fear God’s wrath as much as I love and trust His grace. Please, before you offer, I beg you NOT to pray for my peace of spirit – I do NOT want to have peace in my spirit about this as long as children are being sold wholesale to the Humanists, esp Christian children, and under the guise of “Christian-ese” no less. I do NOT want to have peace in my soul as long as people’s private property is up for grabs to the highest voter. I do not want peace in my spirit while justice is ignored. Did Paul have peace in his soul when his friends in Galatia embraced false teaching (Gal 3)? No, he was agitated! He begged them and pleaded, reminded and gave examples – he in turn agitated them, to restore them to good doctrine.

              I will have peace in my spirit when God’s Law is taught properly and honored rightly.

              • PSKS, I have been trying to express gestures of good will to you. I hear you. I am trying to clarify the things that I am saying, not trying to insult you. I appreciate your passion about this subject, but would hope that the words you choose to communicate it would adorn the truth of Scripture (much as a sweet wife adorns the gospel in Titus 2), attract people to what you say by a tender spirit, and not cause an unnecessary stumbling block.

                I am learning this myself. The more I understand my audience, the more effectively I can speak into their hearts. That is why I have taught my English students (in a weekly Christian home school co-op that we were in) to think about how to speak with grace and truth, and to learn about other non-Christian worldviews so that when they encounter someone of that belief system, they won’t make fools out of themselves in their ignorance. (Trust me, I’ve seen it happen.) We talk about the vocabulary and concepts, and then contrast them to what the Bible says. One of my daughters, who is quite active in ministering to Japanese students, came and spoke to them about relating to Buddhists. I could have had another of my daughters who frequently travels to the back country of southern Bolivia come and speak to them about the syncretism of Catholic and tribal religions. Or I could have had another daughter, who works as a writer for Wycliffe Bible Translators, come to speak to them about how Wycliffe seeks to be faithful to the Word while clearly communicating in the native heart language. All of these daughters started at public college at age 16. They are treasures in the Lord, my sisters in Christ, and I respect them.

                I really can’t carry this conversation further. We’ve had a few days off from active home schooling this week after our first six weeks, but we’re starting again on Monday and I have much to do to prepare. I take home schooling very seriously.

                PSKS, please accept my good will and respect, as well as my prayers of blessing on your life — in whatever form God himself feels that you need.

                With Christian love,
                Virginia Knowles

  29. OK, unfortunately it seems we are not making much headway on the tone topic, PSKS and Word Warrior. I too need to bow out now because like Krissa, whose kind words I appreciate, I am also busy with other concerns. I need to finish lesson planning to start a new unit study on early colonial America. Witch hunt anyone? 🙂 (Just trying to lighten things up a bit. “A merry heart doeth good like a medicine!”)

    Really, truly, I pray that God will bless you all so much, fill you with more joy and peace than you could ever imagine, and give you a wonderful year of home schooling. He is so faithful! And since I am confident that he still listens to my prayers I know that he will answer!

    No hard feelings! Still lots of good stuff here, Word Warrior! I enjoy reading (most of) your posts.

    Grace and truth, sisters!

    Much love,
    Virginia

    P.S. Dear Luci — I popped over to your lovely blog. I am sorry you are going through endometriosis and infertility right now, and I will certainly say a prayer to our Loving Father for you. He will lead you in all your ways. It sounds like you have a winner of a husband. Mine pitches in a bunch, too. I need to thank him more for that! What would I do without that guy? 🙂

  30. Christie P says:

    I was just telilng my husband yesterday how I believe that public school hinders the growth of personal time management skills. If the only time we learn is when we leave our regular lives and go to a big brick building with bells that tell us when to sit and when to move – then when we’re out on our own it’s like summer vacation all the time and we don’t ever roll up our sleeves and tackle an elephant one bite at a time – notunless somebody spoonfeeds us each bite.

    Well – that’s a bit melodramatic way to put it (which I tend to do). Some people come out just fine and can tackle a big project, break it down into bite-sized pieces, get into it and finish it over the course of a week or a month, but I wonder how many of us (especially me) would’ve developed more personal organization skills and time management skills if we had been schooled at home.

    I also REALLY agree with the author’s take on the school spirit! It’s worship – but of what?

  31. Word Warrior says:

    In the kindest spirit and most loving tone I can muster, I would “tie up loose ends” with a really big challenge to those reading, pondering and searching through this topic.

    The question we MUST answer as Christians is: “Is the issue of educating our children and/or public schooling a gray area, with all options open to our own discernment, or is it not?” If we can answer that question, we can begin to assess our responsibility, if we have one, before God.

    One of the most profound “slap in the forehead” moment we had as we were deciding about our children’s education was doing some research into the Humanist Manifesto, written and signed by some of the men known as “the founding fathers of education” (John Dewey, J. Dunphy, Skinner, etc.)

    To quote Dunphy, I am convinced that the battle for humankind’s future must be waged and won in the public school classroom…The classroom must and will become an arena of conflict between the old and the new – the rotting corpse of Christianity, together with all its adjacent evils and misery, and the new faith of humanism…”

    The question isn’t even open to debate about what at least some of the underpinnings of the public school system are. They are openly stated. Often defenders of the system point to the well-intentioned, caring teachers who pour themselves into the classroom. But these teachers do not make up the core of the value system that represents what public education seeks to propagate. There is the ethical question we must answer of “what is at the core?” even if the surface looks OK to me.

    Given this blatant admittance of the humanist RELIGION upon which our PS are built upon, we must see what Scripture does say about our roles raising children. I don’t need to quote them; some have already been quoted and I think most of us believe the Bible tells us that we are to raise our children up (disciple, train, instruct) in the admonition of the Lord.

    The question is not even CAN the two be simultaneously done, but rather, what is required of us? If we are responsible for guarding hearts, instructing in the Lord, seeing to it that our children do not become a companion of fools, avoiding any situation where they are “walking in the counsel of the ungodly”, how can we reconcile our transference of daily instruction over our children into the hands of those who reject God and worship a false religion?

    It is no different than sending my child into an institution with Islam as the bedrock religion upon which everything else is built. Even if there were Christian teachers there, it would be ludicrous to think I could obey my Scriptural commands to instruct them in the Lord and send them there.

    With love I plead for parents to think deeply, consider long and search the Scripture for wisdom.

    (Written in a bit of a hurry…sorry if there are typos. No time for proofing.)

  32. Wordn Warrior, well said and winsome…

    I don’t do well at giving the “gist” since my blog article stands as a whole, so here it is in its entirety… Read it carefully, please. I think it’s worth the few minutes.

    Blessings,
    Virginia

    Do It Well, But Keep It Humble

    “Homier than thou!” A bunch of years ago, Mike Farris of HSLDA wrote an article about being “homier than thou” (a pun on the old phrase “holier than thou”) in which he cautioned home educating parents against arrogance and self-righteousness, especially when relating to other people who have chosen (or have no choice) to do things differently. I can’t remember all that he said, but the phrase stuck with me. Unfortunately, I find that it still applies. I read several blogs about Biblical womanhood, family life, and home schooling. I truly appreciate each one of them, but occasionally I stumble on a post or subsequent reader comments that make me cringe. Usually, the writer is trying to make a case for home schooling, or having a large “full quiver” family, or respecting your husband’s leadership, or following the courtship model, or training daughters to be “keepers at home” or whatever the worthy issue is. That’s good, up to a point. The problem is when this turns into a diatribe and ridicule against those who either may disagree with them or who are simply asking sincere but pointed questions because they really want to understand what all the fuss is about. This grieves me. This is not Christian grace or humility. It is not “speaking the truth in love.” I see it as a huge turn-off to those whom we really do want to win. As the old adage goes, “You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.” I’ve always treasured the home schooling lifestyle for the positive benefits that it can bring, rather than as a negative reaction against public schooling. Sure, I think home schooling is better! That’s why I’m doing it, despite all of the challenges! That’s why I spend so much time writing and speaking to encourage and equip other moms in this Grand Adventure. But that doesn’t mean that someone is “bad” or “brainwashed” if they don’t (or can’t) home school. (Yes, I have seen those exact words used…)

    Coincidentally, my friend Stephanie sent me a note the other day which confirmed my thoughts: “I cannot thank you enough for your example of not only homeschooling, but of godliness and love. You never PUSHED homeschool on me or told me how awful it is to send your kid to public school or anything like that. Your children have flourished in both the collegiate and business worlds as well as in their social endeavours. You did what you believed God would have you do and did not push those beliefs onto others. I thank you for that. My children and I have been blessed by the years I was able to teach them and have them home 100% of the time. Starting my final year of homeschooling , that is why I wanted to say thank you to you for helping me travel down this glorious road.” Then my friend Michelle wrote just this morning, “You have been a wonderful inspiration, not because you are perfect , but because you are not, and you help me believe maybe I am really doing a good job.”

    You see, we really don’t have to be obnoxious or strident to get our point across. When my younger kids bicker (as they often do) I remind them that the only thing you prove by calling someone an “IDIOT!!!!” is that you yourself are one. Of course I am preaching to myself as well! We simply cannot build ourselves up by tearing others down. We will only prove how immature we are! Maybe this little article itself will seem like a diatribe. It’s not meant to be. My aim is to bring a little necessary correction in an area where I too have been guilty. We home school moms can take a certain amount of satisfaction in how our children are turning out. I’m certainly proud of my ten terrific kids, even though I see their weaknesses and they definitely see mine! Where this parental contentment takes a turn for the worse is if we smugly give the impression that the reason why we are having so much outward success is because we are so good at what we do! Bosh! Whatever we do is sheerly by the grace of God. It is this grace that will also pick us up again after our pride leads to the inevitable downfall. If you ever get to the point where you recognize things in your own heart or your children’s lives that make you gasp in shock, then thank the Lord for his enlightening mercies! This is the opportunity to embrace the gracious gift of humility and to plead for his help. We need to be keenly aware of our continual dependence on God. Sometimes he allows these bumps — big and little –to shake us out of deathly complacency. Brokenness brings so many blessings, not the least of which is a new and deeper compassion for hurting people. You see, no matter how good things look on the outside, folks are struggling. We may hide it well, but we all have fissures beneath the surface. Some of us have even experienced internal earthquakes. I am full of gratitude for the very painful, eye-opening seasons of my life, even the ones that continue to make me gasp. They were (and are) the mercy of God to wake me up, to spur me to pursue change, to help me to bring compassionate grace and healing to others, to make me see how his power is perfected in my weakness. In our home school, it is Mom who is really being educated!

    So, dear friends, whatever you do, “Do it well, but keep it humble!”

  33. Sorry for the typo on your screen name, Word Warrior — I’m very very tired right now. Long day. Grandbaby just left after dinner. Back to lesson planning.

  34. Jennifer says:

    “My school is different” is a gross lie, of the same caliber as “You can’t get pregnant your first time or on any month beginning w/ a ‘J.’” All public schools are State schools, w/ State first, God after hours. If you condone and endorse this God is NOT with you”

    Your words are indeed arrogant and you sound paranoid to boot. Your name was enough to give me warning about taking you to heart, but now I have solid proof.

  35. Jennifer says:

    Cutting the budget? Sounds interesting, Kelly. I’m all for improving public schools.

  36. Jennifer says:

    Unless of course he hopes to cut back so much that the system will be crippled and therefore unable to continue.

  37. Jennifer says:

    I’d like to be completely clear, Kelly: I know the dangers of many public schools. Yes, some terrify me and no, I would NOT be willing to risk sending my children there. Ever.

    I grew up in a mostly Christian town with teachers whose curriculum never involved contradicting the Bible; many spoke of God, most kids believed, and if they didn’t (teachers or kids) it never came up. By middle school kids were harsher, but my faith was never threatened; it never even occured to me. A LOT of this does indeed depend on what a given child’s relationship is at home, and what they’re taught by parents. My parents never had to contradict what I learned at school; I didn’t even learn what sex was until I was halfway through my eleventh year. I’d send my children to all three of my schools in an instant. But if we live elsewhere, and I don’t find a good school, I’ll use any other means possible to educate them; I’ve had misgivings about private Christian schools in the past, simply because I feared what influence children who SHOULD be Christians but acted terribly might have on my own kids (elementary school is an awfully young age to learn about the levels of hypocrisy; I didn’t even know people who called themselves Christians could be bad until I was ten). However, if I find a good private Christian school, that will be a definite choice. Perhaps I could hire a tutor for my kids when it comes to subjects I can’t teach; maybe there will be a neighbor who privately teaches children. For subjects I do know about, there are books; books have taught me so much, and I already have dozens of kids’ books that are educational without being boring to adults! I love the idea of taking my kids outside, showing them nature, and I highly appreciate your resources for such things, Kelly. I’ll never expose my kids to dangerous or shaky systems; souls and lives are NOT to be risked, and i respect everyone here whose beliefs support this and are strong-spoken about it. It breaks my heart enough to read teen books about suicide, or the torment in Stephen King’s “Carrie”.

    • Word Warrior says:

      Jennifer,

      “I’ll never expose my kids to dangerous or shaky systems”.

      That is very noble and I’m glad to hear it. I submit though, that the Bible gives us a higher level of responsibility than even that. A parent’s job is to instruct–morning, noon and night in the admonition of the Lord. NOT ONLY THAT, but we have clear direction to keep them away from “the counsel of the ungodly”, from “fools as companions” and from “the very appearance of sin”. We are to, at best, keep them in an environment where they “think on whatever things are lovely, true, pure, noble, honest and praise worthy”. Christian parents are obligated to help their children pursue holiness, to avoid false teaching (and the texts are full of it) and to “walk with the wise”.

      I could go on and on.

      How then does a Christian parent reconcile sending his children into a system that openly denies God (regardless of the “good” school it may be, the “system” is indeed corrupt and just a little investigation will reveal it if one really wants to know), propagates a false religion at its core, teaches falsehood, is full of temptations and foolishness….I could on here too.

      There are so many levels, it’s difficult to combine them in one conversation. If the schools themselves WERE noble at the core, and did teach the laws of God, the sheer time away from parents with the heavy peer influence alone robs parents of their ability to effectively transfer the doctrines of the faith, which we’re commanded to do all hours of the day.

      But because this point seems to be moot with most parents who think the peer dependency is normal, I focus on the most fundamental issue which is the fact that the public school system IS based on humanist thought, socialist agendas and runs against everything that Christianity stands for.

      I find it nearly impossible to believe that Christians can reconcile this open discrepancy and so I passionately try to persuade.

      • Jennifer says:

        I know what a parent’s job is, Kelly. And my clear point was that if I find a school that does not practice what you described, like the one I grew up in, I’ll have no compunction allowing my child to stay there.

        • Word Warrior says:

          Jennifer,

          Problem: they ALL “practice” a rejection of the foundational truth of God’s law, the very thing, the ONLY thing, in fact, parents are responsible for teaching their children all day long. (Education and morality is not neutral.) (See IAAPW’s “cracked foundation” metaphor). If this rejection of truth was never even obvious to you, the principle itself denies the commandments of God for parents.

          And your conclusion also still ignores the “companion of fools”/peer dependency model that subjects children to unbelievable temptation without guidance or a biblical lens through which to view sin (and how do they “meditate on His law day and night” in the midst of perverseness?) as well as the legalized theft that is our ps system, unethical on a whole different level.

          • Jennifer says:

            They don’t “all” do that, Kelly; another point concerning my own school. Our highschool principle lead us in prayer outside the campus in the morning and in every graduation I’ve attended, one of the speaker students boldly lead in prayer and/or quoted from Scripture. This was during the primary time when prayer in school and “Christmas” in Wal-Mart were considered bad. As for the peer thing, that’s why I considered private school. At the end of the day, though, kids will always be around mixed children at some point; keeping them homeschooled won’t change that, surrounding them with church kids won’t either, and they need some knowledge of how to deal with diversity at a young age.

  38. Word Warrior says:

    An additional thought and challenge for parents considering this issue…

    Careful and deductive reasoning is paramount with a topic so crucial. The public school system has become a sacred cow in our country, preventing most parents from even thinking about the possibility of its dangers.

    A quick deduction looks like this: where Christianity is not the basis of teaching and reasoning that vacuum is filled with humanist philosophy. That happens by default. Simply put, we base truth on what God says or what man says.

    Biblically speaking, this is an abomination to God. In fact, there were some mass genocides, orchestrated by Him, on nations who turned away from His law and replaced it with man’s law, just to understand how He feels about it. It’s idolatry.

    At the very basic level, public education is a system that openly rejects God’s laws as the foundation of truth, inadvertently replacing it with man’s law. In relation to family values, marriage, sex, money–all of life–our children will be taught values from an anti-Christian perspective.

    Some of it is subtle (the most dangerous in my opinion) and some is more blatant.

    As a Christian parent, does God merely “understand” if I subject my children to the teaching of this religion?

    So my challenge is for parents to study humanism and its relationship with the public educational system, and then compare your findings with the biblical commands from Scripture regarding our responsibility as parents.

    It’s time to lay aside our personal experiences as an indicator of right and wrong, and be willing to look at the facts and principles behind our decisions in this area.

  39. Natasha B says:

    I went to a very good public school academically speaking, but I would never think of sending my kids to one. But, I certainly don’t want everyone responsible for their childs education. What about the single moms that have loser boyfriends constantly coming in and out of the house, and drinking and drugs, and fighting? School is a childs only refuge. I have worked in the school system and the majority of parents can’t even make sure their kids have food to eat, thank goodness the school provides free breakfast and free lunches because those kids would go hungry. And I am not talking about not having enough money to feed your kids or homeschool them, their are a lot of parents who do not put their kids first, who don’t care to make sure they are well fed so they can learn properly, I can’t imagine these people being responsible for educating their children too. So does this mean those kids should suffer even more because we don’t want to pay school taxes? Maybe we should all sell our houses and move into those neighborhoods with poor school districts and offer to homeschool or tutor our neighbors children. Maybe by example and through lots of praying they would get their act together. But we just can’t not pay school taxes and just leave those other kids with less than noble parents to fend for themselves.

    I know a single mother who homeschools, but she is believes in God and raises her children that way. She manages to homeschool because she sees raising her kids properly as a priority, because she loves and fears the Lord. But what about the people that don’t? Do we just let those kids suffer? And who would be in charge to make sure those kids are actually being homeschooled? What if the parents didn’t cooperate? It would be More kids in foster care, are we willing to take those kids in? Maybe a good idea would be to require people to pay school taxes but you could choose what school your money went to. So you could give your money to a good catholic school instead of a public one. I def think the public school system needs some competition and they should be working of a commission system.

    • Jennifer says:

      Thank you Natasha, your words are like soothing water.

    • R. F. says:

      Natasha and Jennifer-

      I understand you like the public school system because you see it as a way to educate all children. However, the problem most of us has, is the control at the federal level, the rejection of God, teaching of things non academic (homosexuality),and the taking of money to fund them etc. If the public school system, as it is today, is taken away we will not be left with a bunch of uneducated bumkins. Instead we open the way for other opportunities. Churches, private tutors, taking in neighborhood kids to teach, etc. For those that desire to give money to send a poor child to a private tutor, you can have that option as well.
      It is because of the current system having such a cult like following that we are unable to change it and make it better.

  40. Years ago, when we were looking for a home to purchase we found a number of houses with obvious bad foundations. One house was sinking on one side, another had structural issues because of a cracked foundation. These issues were clear and it was easy for us to spot them – we didn’t buy.
    During this time we also found a stunningly beautiful home in our price range. It was perfect for us. But after a little inspection by my husband and his father we discovered that the foundation of this perfect looking home was also corrupt. Everybody knows that a bad foundation will eventually lead to numerous serious issues within the home, no matter how good it looks from the outside.
    While a less trained person might not have seen the trouble, my husband wisely sought counsil in his knowledgable father and didn’t just fall for the appearance of the home; the foundation was bad and that meant trouble in the long-run.

    The foundation of public schooling is bad. Even the schools that look good and are holding up well still have a rotton foundation. Eventually you will see it in the school itself.

    I’ll also submit that the most dangerous public schools are not necessarily the larger schools with metal detectors and such. Evil is not as dangerous when we can see it for what it is. Evil that really kills is the evil that we don’t see, or refuse to see. The evil that sneaks up on us.

    Without going into too much detail I will say this. I have heard stories of good, upstanding men whose evil was hidden away at home on their computers. One of these men was teaching the same aged girls (just 9 and 10 years old) he was found secretly looking at in the privacy of his home office.
    You don’t know who has your children all day. Public, private, church.
    You don’t know them.

    I’m sorry if this comment is jumbled. My pregnant brain is acting up. (Yes, I use that as an excuse for everything).

  41. Public School kills souls says:

    Just saw this today, and thought it was appropriate: “To commit our children to the care of irreligious people is to commit lambs to the superintendency of wolves.” — Timothy Dwight, President of Yale University (1795-1817)

  42. Jennifer says:

    That’s a great quote, PSKS. But I’m confused: isn’t the guy who said it president of a PUBLIC school? Quite a big one?

    • Yale University is a private school. But, I had to look it up – I didn’t know either.

    • Hi, Jennifer, Yale was and is a private institution, originally founded to supply clergy to the newly formed colonies. Check the date on the quote.

      I know some issues can be hot button, but please read thoroughly before you start hurling insults at your friendly acquaintances. It makes for much more enlightening conversation for all of us…thanks in advance :).

      • Jennifer says:

        Thanks, Pilostwife.

        That wasn’t an insult CC, it was a simple question. Several of the people here are neither acquaintances nor friendly; I think you know that. Yale still contains myriad peers, and I’ve been pondering the amount of real difference between regular private schools and public schools.

  43. Word Warrior says:

    For further understanding of the agenda of the NEA and its support of the Humanist religion, read The Humanist Curriculum by Dr. Samuel Blumenfeld.

    “The NEA has remained remarkably faithful to the Humanist Manifesto since 1933. For all practical purposes, the public school has become the parochial school for secular humanism. Its doctrines pervade the curriculum from top to bottom.

    All that’s left is for Christians to admit that the public education system and Christianity are in direct opposition to each other, and as such, cannot be a biblical option for the mentoring, training and teaching of our children.

    • Jennifer says:

      This is why I’ve become increasingly wary of the system. It’s a simple fact that everything’s getting more liberal, and I heard long before now about homosexual romance stories being sifted into children’s libraries. But since 1933? I don’t recall anti-Biblical agendas in every arena, or any in fact, in all 14 years of school.

      • Jennifer says:

        Thanks for the heads-up, Kelly. I’ll keep my eyes peeled.

      • Word Warrior says:

        “I don’t recall anti-Biblical agendas in every arena, or any in fact, in all 14 years of school.”

        That may have more to do with not recognizing “anti-God” or not properly defining it.

        For an obvious example, our little conservative, country, mostly-Christian-teachered school gave us a situational ethics exercise (in sociology class) in 1988. “If the world was going to end, and we could save 8 people in a cave, and you are responsible for the 8 people who get to live, who do you pick from the list?” The list included “obvious” choices like, “a 22 year old scientist and an 78 year-old grandmother”. You may not even recognize such an exercise as “anti-biblical” but it is the conditioning of choosing the value of a life based on variables besides the sacredness of all life that God ascribes to each human.

        Less obvious is the fact that all subjects taught are “anti-God” if they are taught outside a biblical worldview. That is, we study Greek mythology and anti-Christian literature, but specifically from the angle of how the incorrect world view negatively affects mankind.

        The bottom line is that there is no neutrality in education, like most people think. Yes, a child can be taught 2 + 2 = 4, but if he isn’t taught that the systematic order of the universe was established by God and the laws of Creation, it’s an “anti-God” world view.

        If a child is taught about technical processes of reproduction but isn’t taught that all of life originates from God the Creator, he is inadvertently learning that life is random and evolutionary. And that one error alone, I submit to you, drastically changes our world view about everything.

        It’s about peeling back the logical layers and holding up everything in light of Scripture. It’s not as simple as, “well my school was good and didn’t teach us to hate God.” It’s so much deeper than that if we are willing to look.

        • Jennifer says:

          You’re right Kelly, that’s a horrible “exercise” to give kids. Believe me, I’d remember something like that.

          • Word Warrior says:

            You’re still tip-toeing around the white elephant, Jen. First, you’re basing your support of the PS system on “what you remember” in your one school, as your experience, instead of the biblical/moral/ethical question at stake. That’s not our biblical duty when assessing a thing; we’re bound to study the principle, foundational motivation and/or agenda behind the institution where we entrust our children, making sure that it, at the very least, upholds our command to “instruct them daily in the Lord”.

            We’re forced th answer the question does the system as a whole–not an individual school–support the biblical mandate to instruct children in the Lord? A prayer prayed here and there is like a bandaid over a volcano. One teacher and even one principal can’t ultimately undo the foundations of a morally corrupt system. Address the root. Give me Scriptural evidence to combat the Scripture I’ve given as support of my conclusion.

            Furthermore, your experience is a flimsy support for a current-day child’s experience. We’re talking different schools, different times, and a parent can not know every exercise, book and thing being taught in a classroom. Which still eludes the point, but since you brought it up…

            Arguments based on personal experience in this case are akin to saying, “I know that generally pornography has negative effects and is anti-biblical; however, it’s been our experience that it enhances our marriage bed, and thus, I don’t see that it’s always negative.”

            Christians must view life-choices in light of what is fundamentally right or wrong,given instruction from God’s Word, regardless of what an experience proves otherwise. If God says “you’re either FOR me or you’re AGAINST me”, and the PS school SYSTEM says, “no God here”, the case is black and white to me. I can’t both “instruct my children in the admonition of the Lord” and send them to a principally anti-God institution.

            • Jennifer says:

              “Arguments based on personal experience in this case are akin to saying, “I know that generally pornography has negative effects and is anti-biblical; however, it’s been our experience that it enhances our marriage bed, and thus, I don’t see that it’s always negative.”

              I beg your pardon, but that’s a crock, and a VERY offensive one. The teachers and principals greatly affect the school; I don’t care what started it. What I care about is the individual school and MANY are like mine, fighting for continual rights to pray, teach sound subjects and superior education. Prayers like band-aids, good Lord; my entire point is that that’s just an example of what flows on the school’s bloodstream, that it’s strongly indicative of its heart. I’m surprised you didn’t see that. I don’t need to quote Scrpture to support whether an individual school is Godly; it depends on the school.

              • Jennifer says:

                Okay..I was wondering when to drop out here and that last reply suggests that now’s the best time; my heart just about ruptured.

              • Word Warrior says:

                Jennifer,

                Perhaps your offense to my statement may serve you to better understand why I am so passionate about this topic. I don’t see public school based on “this school or that one”. I don’t see the individual, wonderful, well-intentioned teachers (many of whom are my friends and relatives). I don’t see the “good districts and bad ones”. And therein lies the problem with our debating–we’re arguing two different things, or at least from two different standpoints.

                I used the analogy because pornography is something we can all mostly agree with is wrong in every circumstance. This is how I view the SYSTEM of public education, regardless of how “good” it may appear.

                You summed up my confirmation that we are on two different pages with your statement:

                “I don’t need to quote Scrpture to support whether an individual school is Godly; it depends on the school.”

                An individual school *can’t* be godly. It is forbidden by NEA. No matter how badly the teachers at that particular school wish it were or try to make it…it can’t be.

            • Public School kills souls says:

              WW – “If God says “you’re either FOR me or you’re AGAINST me”, and the PS school SYSTEM says, “no God here”, the case is black and white to me. I can’t both “instruct my children in the admonition of the Lord” and send them to a principally anti-God institution.”

              Brilliant. And I thought the porn example highly applicable considering how many married couples endorse the practice (to enhance the marriage bed), and how many people – even professing Christians – are addicted to porn.

  44. Miri says:

    Yes, but you’re not hearing Natasha’s words, are you? You want to do away with taxes for public schools?

    Everyone in this country is NOT Christian, yet all deserve to be educated. To believe any less is to be…I’ll end there.

    • “yet all deserve to be educated”….Miri, I appreciate what you’re expressing, but I have a problem with the word “deserve”. There isn’t a Constitutional right (nor a Biblical right) to an academic education. It’s just not there. Do I believe in and want to facilitate a rigorous academic education for all people who seek it? Yes. Do I believe they have the right to reach into the pockets of others to achieve it? No. That would be….

      I hear Natasha’s words, and I certainly don’t have all the answers, but participating in un-Christian behavior to counter un-Christian behavior is only un-Christian. As for what people have a right to by virtue of their existence, that’s going to be problematic, because the same system that seeks to quash enumerated and inalienable rights seeks to super-legislatively render “rights” that aren’t there, often rights that are counter to the well being of the recipient. And not all charity is Christian, by the way. It is a blessing of the Holy Spirit that unbelievers are moved by the interests of their fellow man.

  45. Katie Grace says:

    What a great discussion! We have also chosen to homeschool our children. We came to our decision after much studying (the Bible) and prayer. My husband and I were both public educated and I taught in the ps system for 9 years before becoming a mother. I was that Christian teacher who poured my heart into my job. But, I still worked in a system that was unchangeable. No amount of money will improve the ps system! That is a myth. The problem is with HOW we educate children.

    Though most of our friends and church families send their children to public school, they support our choice to homeschool. What I would like to see is public school become the second choice for Christians. Christian parents educating their own children should (IMO) become the perfered choice. Or, maybe the church could educate the children of the church. We, as Christians, should take back the educating of our children and stop surrendering our most beloved blessings to a world which seeks to corrupt them.

  46. Jennifer says:

    Thank you to those who have spoken gracefuly and offered sources and points of serious consideration. For some reason this is more sore for me than I thought and I’ll gain nothing from staying here. On this matter I am not torn; many schools have Christian roots and are fighting for their right to express them. They’ll always have my support. And, if no such school is to be found when my own kids are ready to be educated, I’ll explore any other means there are; I trust God’s guidance. It hasn’t been that long since my own school days and I hope the outcry against liberalism serves to strenghten and preserve more schools like the ones I had. If for any reason anyone wants to talk to me, please ask Kelly for my email address; I’m done speaking here.

  47. Natasha B says:

    I’m with Kelly, if you are a christian then you have no business sending your child to a public school. Not when you have the knowledge to do a better job raising your kids. I agree with her 100%, maybe my first post seemed to be contradicting, but it wasn’t. I was just stating that we had a lot of work to do if we don’t want to contribute to school taxes. And the best way to start is to homeschool your kids. The more people that homeschool the more others will start to look at the public schools with scrutiny and question their methods.

    i would love to do away with school taxes if we could come up with a plan to help those children who do not have good parents get an education. I don’t like paying school taxes when the schools are doing a poor job. I just don’t know what we would do with all the people that are lazy terrible parents. It’s a big mess.

    In order to change the system, we need to start in our own homes.

    • R. F. says:

      Natasha,

      Maybe if we pulled the rug out from under terrible parents, they would change thier ways. We allow parents to be terrible, because they know someone else will educate their kids. If they suddenly didn’t have that option, their might be some real desire to change. Think of the person on welfare (whose been raised to think it is their “right” to get it.) What incentive to they have to go get a job and change? Take it away and after a few hungry weeks, they just might be motivated to find a job… Same with schools. Take away the option and the people might get motivated.

      • Jennifer says:

        Take away the option of public school because you don’t like it? There’s a likely America; what nice thoughts.

        • R. F. says:

          Not becaue I don’t like it, but because the current system is really unconstitutional. Schools existed before the government took over. They were run by churches and other private groups. Once the government took over spending and budgets went through the roof (unlimited money right?). But education did not improve. Ask yourself, what runs more effectively government or private business? Do you really think the only answer to having children in the country educated is by the governmnet stepping in? Do some research, when did the literacy rate drop here in the US?

  48. Smiles says:

    I so appreciate the boldness in your words, Kelly. There is much work to be done and we have to start with our own families first. The job of educating our children falls on my husband and my shoulders. We studied Deuteronomy 6 as a husband and wife. We could not walk away from it without a definite conviction of the heart.

    It is mandated to us to raise up our children, so that our faith is passed onto them. Passing on our faith takes lots and lots of time. We have been homeschooling now for 5 years and we see the time that it takes to pass that on. It takes an enormous amount of dedication on our part. My husband and I never realized this. But after reading books like “Already Gone”(you can find it here:
    http://www.answersingenesis.org/PublicStore/product/Already-
    Gone-Book,6131,224.aspx) and watching this video by Voddie Baucham: “Children of Caesar: The State of American Education” (you can find it here: . We saw many many children walking away from the faith and we realized it is because of “us”, their parents, that they are walking away. We realized our duty before the Lord and how we had been slacking in it. We realized we were allowing them to walk away from God, just by letting someone else disciple them.

    The Lord gives us a beautiful picture of how His laws and statutes are passed on. He showed us how His love and joy are passed on. It is by us living it out before our children and walking beside them, showing them our lives as according to His Word. It is reading God’s Word with them 2 to 3 times a day. It is talking of our struggles and weaknesses to them, so they see that we need Jesus just as much as they do. It is showing them our excitement over His teachings and praying with them. This way of life takes HUGE amounts of time and energy. But it is worth EVERY minute of it.

    When you look to the whole Bible and see the heart of God, His Scripture makes it very clear. Whoever is teaching our children, is discipling them . . . We studies that, when someone is discipled, they are taught, trained, brought up, and becoming like the person that is discipling them. We had to ask ourselves, “Are we willing to have my children become like us? Are our lives worthy of being followed?” Or were we willing to have them become like their peers that were teaching them at school or their teachers? Did we admire those teachers enough to completely trust them to train, teach and bring up our children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord?

    Our children were in Christian schools at the time too. When we walked away from dropping our children off at school, we had to ask ourselves if we completely trusted the people we were dropping them off to to COMPLETELY do the job that God was asking to be done. They would do the job, but would they care like we would care? Would they give them the attention that they truly needed? I have been a teacher, I know how hard it is to give 20 some children all individualized attention and they weren’t even mine. I loved those children as much as I could when I taught them, but I still was not able to love them all like their mommies and daddies could love them. No matter how I tried, and I have to say I was married to that job. I arrived at 6 and left every night at 7 and I still could not love them like they needed to be loved. I see that now as I have my own. I see the love and care it takes to raise them up.

    It takes a ton of me and I have to be devoted and “on” each day. We realized this as we studied the word “disciple” in the Webster 1828 dictionary and in God’s Word. We also studied the words “education”, “training”, teacher”. We knew that information and learning was passed on through a teacher. Who were our childrens’ teachers? We had to evaluate all of the “teachers” we had allowed in their lives: peers, their friends, us, other teachers, coaches, pastors, other families, TV, video games, books.” We had to look hard at the ones that were having the GREATEST influence on their lives and see how those “teachers” were discipling our children. What habits were they picking up? What worldviews were being taught? What attitudes were being displayed? Was God’s Word being lifted up as the Authority in these places? Where our children desiring to hear our teaching on things, or was our authority being usurped because we were allowing it to be by giving them to others? There are so many questions to be asked by ourselves and these questions we had to come face to face with because we were ultimately responsible for them and passing on the ways of the Lord to them. We were willing to ask these hard questions and find out our real answers.

    We had a lot to get in order, and it was not easy. But it has been worth every change. Our children see our ugliness, they see our bad habits and we see theirs and we work together to help each other. They see our victories and they see God’s Word helping to give us strength. We lovingly train our children now, and they lovingly call us to the carpet when they see us not doing what we are “preaching”. There is a vulnerability that is there now. This is a big job. BUT IT IS WORTH EVERY MINUTE. IT IS SO WORTH IT!

  49. Jennifer says:

    A lot of people are seeking to improve those very systems, Natasha.

    I’m sorry I blew up at you, Kelly. Your words have helped me become more aware of the situation. Nevertheless, I don’t have a high tolerance for people either putting down my own schools or implying that there are no PS fighting to present the very kind of thing we’re fighting for (whether you did or not, it’s things like these that make me wary of such discussions). Private schools are sounding pretty good to me; it’s the social experience I want my kids to have.

    • Public School kills souls says:

      Jennifer – I beg you, BEG you to rethink this. You need to train up your children all day long, disciple them all day long, teach them God’s laws all day long.

      The “social aspect” of Christian schools is often just whitewashed paganism. You do not want this discipling your children. And social aspect? The mocking, the cruel comments, the perversion of authority and justice, and enforcement of pecking orders, the endorsement of bullying – and that’s just some of the teachers. Then we get to the students…

      I speak from experience.

      Please, please reread Smile’s comment. And believe me, your children can get really wonderful social activity in the homeschool setting – the freed up time and large homeschool populations foster this very nicely.

      • Public School kills souls says:

        I’m not saying this is ALL private schools, I’m not going to say that sending your child to one is a sin, I’m just saying it’s not particularly safe, and can be just as spiritually unsafe, and psychologically unsafe, as the formally pagan institutions.

        • Jennifer says:

          Thank you truly for your concern, PSKS. And your heads-up: I feared this about Christian schools (and, as I said earlier to Kelly and have discussed with Stacy Mcdonald, I don’t want my kids exposed to religious hypocrisy at that age). You can be assured that I take this matter very seriously and will look at all options, and any schools public or private, very carefully. A tutor would be so nice for the more challenging subjects..

  50. Natasha B says:

    Well put Smiles.

    That is exactly why we want to homeschool, not so much because we hate public schools, but because We want to be the primary influences in their lives, not a bunch of other peers or teachers. I want my children to have a good strong foundation before I send them out in the world. And five years before kindergarten isn’t long enough to do that!

    I hear believers all the time saying how hard it is to work with unbelievers, people who have no morals. They complain they have to work with people who have no sense of right or wrong, and then they whine about how hard it is. Yet no one thinks anything of sending your kid to the same situation for 12 years.

  51. Emily says:

    re: taxes to support public schools:

    Jesus said to “render unto Caesar the things of Caesar”…

    • Public School kills souls says:

      “There are several problems this person’s use of Matthew 22:21 to deal with modern-day taxing policy in the United States. First, because governments compel people to pay taxes because they have the power to do so does not mean that what they are doing is legitimate. It’s still stealing even if we as citizens (which most of the Jews living under Caesar were not) are obligated to pay. If someone strikes me, and I’m to turn the other cheek, the person who struck me is still wrong in what he did. In fact, Jesus calls him an “evil person” (Matt. 5:39). Civil officials must also “render to God.”

      Second, as citizens of the United States, we do not live under Caesar! This may come as a shock to Christians, but it’s true. In principle we are to render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar only when we define our “Caesar.” We live under the Constitution of the United States at the federal level in which we have multiple freedoms, including the right, according the First Amendment, “to petition the government for a redress of grievances.” That means that we do not have to settle for “pay your taxes.” We can complain, debate, and vote out of office those who are abusing their office and violating the Constitution. The Jews living under political oppression had no way to “redress their grievances” since they did not have a political voice. We do.

      (read more here)
      http://americanvision.org/1445/using-power-of-civil-government-steal/

  52. Natasha B says:

    Interesting PSKS, I agree ( meant with seriousness not sarcasm)

    I think we need to stop complaining about paying taxes, it just makes us sound like greedy misers. Let’s get the word out about how homeschooling is the better choice, even for non Christians. All christains need to have the conviction to homeschool and not send their kids to an institution that is going to undermine their parental authority, and more parents need to know about the social agenda Satan is using in the public schools, and that is to get your kids as far away from You (the parent) as possible.

    If you get more and more people to homeschool, the public school system will have to change. Then, you can start talking about not paying school taxes to a system you do not believe in. But first we the Church need to united on the homeschooling issue, and start reaching out to nonchristains and getting a system started that can help parents find the information they need to homeschool their children once we put an end to public schools.

    IMO that would be the best way to show others the value of raising and teaching your own children. But to complain about paying taxes and basically say “Fend for yourselves because Education is NOT a right and I shouldn’t have to pay for YOUR education”, is NOT going to go over well. We’re just going to sound like a bunch of selfish jerks and still not going to get the results we want.

    We need to start with our families first, then our neighbors, then the community in order to bring about change.

    • Public School kills souls says:

      NB, thanks for your thoughts. I deeply agree that responsiblity begins at home, that it sets a good example and a precedent to others around you. I agree that as more people follow dutiful parents’ examples there will be more of a base of people who say “why should I pay for something I deeply disagree with.” (and statistically, if the homeschool populations continues to grow at the same rate it has for the last 10 years, then in 10 more 10% of all US students w/ be homeschooled – that’s a lot! And it’s highly likely as homeschooling at high leves becomes easier and easier thanks to homeschool co-ops and technology, and as myths about where to get good “socialization” continue to clear up)

      But beyond that I’m confused as to what you agree with – the point of my excerpt was to say that we *should* fight evil taxes, or risk endorsing them.

      Like I said, I totally agree that obedience begins at home, and is the best defense and witness, but I don’t think that’s enough. Because Matt 28 tells us to “make disciples of all nations…teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.” Well, here, in this forum, and in my life, I am surrounded by people who believe, and are baptized, but not discipled to obey Christ’s commands yet. It is primarily to them that I speak. They must stop engaging in the theft (as was pointed out, taking your child out of PS cuts school funding, enrolling them increases it). And they have to stop shirking their responsibility for 7 hours a day. And they have to, if need be push their churches to help finantially support those people who truly need assistance, like the family you mentioned earlier (churches *must* re-prioritize their finances!) Remember, in this forum we speak to other Christians, not the lazy do-nothings you mentioned (and rightly, they are a problem). We must hold them to the Word that died on the Cross from them. (It is impossible to separate the Word of God from Christ, we know from John 1)

  53. Amy Roberts says:

    One of the best books I have ever read on this topic is Millstones and Stumblingblocks by Bradley Heath. It is a must read for every Christian parent.

  54. Natasha B says:

    PSKS-

    I don’t get it. Everything you said in your last post I agree with and I don’t think my posts contradicted anything you said, in fact I was just trying to think of ways to make that change in education and also try to think of the stumbling blocks there would be. ( There is no sarcasm in my response to you, i feel I need to say this bc it’s hard to tell over the internet)

    Maybe you thought my whole entire post was directed at you in order to contradict some of your post about the taxes? That was not my intention. I guess I’m confused. And I am aware that this forum is for christians, which is why i choose to post something. I was simply agreeing with you and talking about what we could do to get the results we want, brainstorming if you will bc not paying your taxes is just not an option.

    Anyway, lots of confusion here.

    To everyone else- I think we read every one else’s post and get ready to think they are trying to argue with us.

    Also, something to keep in mind when we want to argue with eachother is…ten years ago I thought homeschooling was nuts, and I thought in all my vast knowledge and experience (sarcasm) that it was not thebest way to raise children. But I had ZERO scripture to back up my opinions. Thankfully, when I met a few women who did homeschool and told me about their experience I had an open mind, and then I decided to homeschool, and I have lots of scripture on why I should. Big difference.

  55. Sylvia says:

    I am not qualified to speak about American public schools since I did not attend one. But I do know the quality of higher education in America, especially post graduate since I left my famuily, traveled across continents and oceans, my first time on a plane. My native country is not the cleanest My father and slept on the dirty sidewalk along with so many others so we could get a place on the line at the US Counsalate for a visa. Even if someone gets admission in an American university a visa is not guaranteed. I know people who have committed suicide because their visa was rejected.
    Say what you will about American public schools, the quality, even the need. And the need for working with your hands and the practical aspects of an education like that. May I please ask you to take a trip to the deepest part of any third world country. Where generations of children and their parents make handicrafts or metal work, sculpture, carpets etc. But they cannot read or write or count. They are exploited by ruthless people. They are not paid the money they deserve, even a living wage. It must be nice to argue about the merits of home schooling and public schooling and have a choice. Please know there are so many in this world who will literally die to have that choice.
    I wish my native country makes education accessible to everyone especially the poor and girls. I have personally taught people in their 60s and 70s, who can barely see, who cannot sign their name, but have only a thumb print as their signature, cry when they write their names for the first time. The American public system may have its faults, but it demands that all children receive a free education because of taxes. I am grateful to live in such a country and that God brought me here.

  56. Public School kills souls says:

    NB, to be clear, I had no thought that you were just being contentious, or anything like that. I honestly was confused about your take on my words about taxes. But I was disagreeing with your (apparent) take on taxation (as I understood it):

    “I think we need to stop complaining about paying taxes, it just makes us sound like greedy misers.”
    And, “But to complain about paying taxes and basically say “Fend for yourselves because Education is NOT a right and I shouldn’t have to pay for YOUR education”, is NOT going to go over well. We’re just going to sound like a bunch of selfish jerks and still not going to get the results we want.”

    See, I was thinking that when speaking to Christians, we have to remind them of the full Word of God, including God’s Laws. So I am compelled to speak to them about the sin of living off of other people’s taxes, or reneging on discipleship, etc, even if it does make me look like a selfish jerk or miser. Besides, it’s one thing to turn the other cheek when you’re being wronged, but it’s not appropriate to turn the other cheek when you see someone else being wronged – that would be turning a blind eye. “This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands.” 1 John 5:2

    So that’s what I was confused about – I didn’t see what you agreed w/ in my “Render unto Caesar” post, when you *seemed* to be saying “lay off the tax talk for now” and I was trying to advocate making the tax talk now.
    Clear as mud? 😉

    But for the rest of what you wrote, I heartily agree!

  57. visiting says:

    There is a history of education in this country before public schools began. Samuel Blumenfeld wrote that the literacy rate was higher in America before compulsory public education began than after.

    Two of Blumenfeld’s books are: Is Public Education Necessary? and NEA: Trojan Horse in American Education.
    http://www.howtotutor.com/sam-bks.htm

    Here is an article by Blumenfeld:
    http://www.home-school.com/Articles/phs30-samblumenfeld.html

    Parents pre-public schools found a way to provide an education for their children, even as today James Tooley, who wrote The Beautiful Tree, found there is private schooling around the world where even poverty-stricken parents send their children as opposed to using the government-provided public schooling.

    tp://www.amazon.com/Beautiful-Tree-Personal-Educating-Themselves/dp/1933995920/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283485120&sr=8-1

    The emphasis on education and literacy in this country was greatly nourished by Christianity, specifically including the desire for children to learn to read the Bible. From before its founding, a framework of Christianity is what made the difference in freedom and education in this country compared to other countries.

    In reading through the comments, I didn’t see that those who posted in favor of public school addressed the Scriptures given by those against public school. That seems to bring the discussion between them to a stalemate.

  58. Miri says:

    I’m sorry, PSKS, but I’m a Christian and you still sound like a selfish jerk. Are you planning on staying off of roads that heathens travel and demanding back your taxes for road work? Would you decide that the public library shouldn’t be funded because it has Harry Potter books?

    I apologize for my bluntness, but really it makes little sense to me. I may be a believer, but I am also a citizen of this country. And as it was so movingly stated above, what a blessing that all children of all colors and races and religions are allowed to learn to read and write! Do we want to give this up and hope that parents will shoulder this burden appropriately? What a cost that would be!

    • Yes, in an entitlement culture, people who stand on what is right, rather than contrived “rights” will seem like selfish jerks. The reflexive response in our society is to call names when we don’t like someone telling us no.

      “Do we want to give this up and hope that parents will shoulder this burden appropriately?” Well, yes, we do, actually. That’s what a parent does. The phrasing of your statement/question is revealing, and I don’t mean to pick on you, but are your really so certain that enabling people to remain incompetent is serving them? Are we so snobbish and elitist as to think that the hapless,huddled masses really can’t do anything but breed, and the State has to come in to do the rest? I don’t believe that as a rule. Certainly there are exceptions, but that kind of thinking is what is meant by the phrase “the soft bigotry of low expectations”. It’s ugly, and damaging, and decidedly un-Christian. Call me a jerk if you want to, but I won’t participate in it willingly.

      “children of all colors and races and religions are allowed to learn to read and write” …are you sure about that? Because the very parents you’re claiming are incompetent are graduates, or at least participants in at some point, of the same system you’re advocating they send their children to. Sylvia wrote thoughtfully of the heartache and poverty people in her country experience because of the education gap, and of the corruption in the system that prevents intelligent people from realizing academic goals, or even access to education. Surely we have it better here, but do you think that paradigm exists only overseas? We leave our own already underserved populations to experience the best their area public schools have to offer, rather than allowing voucher programs so they might attend a safer school with higher academic standards. Sound charitable, full of Christian kindness, and in the best interest of society? What about the child?

      I appreciate the heartfelt sentiment that accompanies most of the counterarguments to my position on this. I share many of the same concerns about the advantages of having a highly educated populace, reading and writing are freeing things. But, educated how, in pursuit of what outcome, is always my question. It isn’t miserly or stingy to not wish to continue funding failure and insist on better results. It’s compassionate with some stewardship thrown in.

      And I want to revise a statement I made earlier – I do think we have a right to an education: a Biblical education. It is withheld by churches and Christian parents all too frequently.

      • Word Warrior says:

        CC,

        Very well-stated…heartily agreed. Our entitlement mentality (growing by the hour) clouds our perception of reality, and as you stated, whether intended or not, breeds an increasingly dependent and helpless society–the opposite of what *seems* we’re aiming at when we clamor to secure “rights” that aren’t rights.

      • Natasha B says:

        Who are you talking to and who are you trying to convince?

        I am assuming me because you mentioned being called a jerk, however you seem to think I am for public schools, which is not true.

        • Word Warrior says:

          Natasha,

          The comment from CC (is that whose comment you’re referencing?) was in answer to Miri, who called “Public School” a “selfish jerk”. Which, by the way, (talking to Miri), let’s avoid name-calling, please.

      • Jennifer says:

        Great thoughts, CC!

      • Word Warrior says:

        Elisabeth,

        That is such an encouragement to me! Thanks for commenting 🙂

  59. Natasha B says:

    PSKS- clear as mud :)I am a woman of action, I want to know the plan to get more people convicted about homeschooling, and we start with scripture and then we show them how to implement it. We can’t just stop with scripture and walk away. So now I want to know what others think the best way to get the word out about convicting other Christians about homeschooling and how we plan on overcoming any obstacles in the way. When I speak of others thinking we are selfish jerks for complaining about taxes, I want to know what we are going to do about it. So, PSKS, I agree with you, but now I want to know the next course of action, make sense? 🙂 I guess others are still on the debating about whether public schools are against scripture, while I already agree it is, and now I want to know what to do about it.

    I am speaking to PSKS and other people on this forum who agree that christains should not put their children in public schools…..We all agree that public schools go against scripture, and the whole tax thing. NOW, what do we do to change it?

    And Sylvia, that was a very convicting post. America is the Best because we accept nothing less. That’s why we are different. And us wanting the best education and chastising Christians for sending their kids to public schools bc it is against scripture, is how we get the Best. Americans do not accept mediocrity, and we don’t measure ourselves against other countries, we measure ourselves according the the Best, and that is God.

    • SavedbyGrace says:

      “Americans do not accept mediocrity, and we don’t measure ourselves against other countries, we measure ourselves according the the Best, and that is God.”

      If you want to know how to get more people interested in homeschooling that would be the way. I don’t believe it can approached from a purely Christian viewpoint because so many Christians are very worldly. However, if we can convince people that the VERY BEST education for their child is to homeschool they might be inclined to consider it.

      Just as an aside – we do have the best opportunity for education in America just as we have the BEST healthcare system in the world for now.

      What we are truly fighting against is exactly what Kelly and Cottage Child were talking about above- that wonderful entitlement mentality! People are entitled so why should they strive to excel?

      • Public School kills souls says:

        Saved by Grace, I hate to disagree w/ you, as you are such a great advocate for homeschooling, but I have to say that we MUST take Christians to the Bible first and foremost. The Scripture is the living Word of God, it has life-changing power we can’t ever fully understand. “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom,” Col 3:16. “Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage— with great patience and careful instruction” 2 Tim 4:2. God promises us that the Word will not return empty. God’s Word has real power! (Acts 19:20) The Word washes and cleanses the regenerate (Eph 5:26)

        “Sanctify them by the truth; Your word is truth.” John 17:17

        ‘Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’ Matt 4:4 (this is an argument for Scripture over pragmatism)

        Satan *knows* there is real power in the Word of God! He *wants* you to avoid it! We must witness in Word and deed. So while, by all means, share the practical fruits of homeschooling, do not rely on pragmatism to change hearts – that’s putting the cart before the horse, and will end w/ empty schooling that happens to be at home. No, preach the Word, do not be afraid of that simple activity. Your time will not be wasted!

        • SavedbyGrace says:

          Oh, I agree with you wholeheartedly!!!! Scripture must/should be the basis of every comment and thought for a Christian. But we must understand that many Christians consciences are seared with worldly thought and they will not hold with sound teaching. They are deceived by worldly thought and have not learned to “come out from among them and be separate”. Therefore, we must start from a point which they can understand: better education and in some instances money. Unfortunately, I think I’m a little cynical about some things and this is one. People will not hold with Biblical teaching -EVEN Christians. Sometimes especially Christians!

          That being said – I really do agree with you completely and I know that God’s word does not return to Him void. Praise God! We can keep saying it and He will provide the increase. Keep standing in the gap.

    • Public School kills souls says:

      NB – ” We can’t just stop with scripture and walk away.”
      –‘Morning NB! I totally agree with this statement – but as you mentioned yesterday, being a good example goes a long way in setting a precedent, to lead people around us to biblical education. I think we have to do both – teach specifically from Scripture and teach from example.

      So now I want to know what others think the best way to get the word out about convicting other Christians about homeschooling and how we plan on overcoming any obstacles in the way.”
      —Well, can you think of any better way than proclaiming the gospel? The *full* gospel (the Word that changes lives, conforming them to the image of Christ – and that’s a lot more than Matt, Mark, Luke and John, which some Christians don’t get yet). I can’t. When someone professes Christianity I am going to assume they are regenerate, and have the Holy Spirit (yes, you can profess w/out being saved, but I’m going to assume in the context they are what they say they are, to hold them to what they say they believe). So, I am going to remind them of the Bible. Again and again. So many Christians don’t read the Bible much, so often the Scriptures I bring up are new to them. They can’t submit to something they don’t know about. I am planting a seed. I leave it to the Holy Spirit to grow that seed.

      So, short answer long, teaching and doing *are* our main actions. The rest happens in God’s time. I totally sypmethize w/ the desire to have a plan of action – I just think that in this case, it’s almost too simple to embrace in it’s ordinary form, but that’s what we must do.

      The only other thing I would recommend is that for those of us who understand the evil of wealth redistibution and the messianic intentions of the Statist schools, *anytime* we can vote down and increase in funding for public school (I don’t care if it’s for toilet paper), we vote NO!

      • Public School kills souls says:

        Sorry, “vote down and increase” was SUPPOSED to be “vote down AN increase, we vote NO to the increase.” And I would add, any time we can vote for a cut, we do that also!

        • Public School kills souls says:

          One more thing, NB, forgive me, I forgot to mention the other equally important action – prayer! We have to preach, pray, and do – all three!

      • Natasha B says:

        Agreed, we def need to start in the christian community. I have been a christian for many years, but I had no idea of the humanist movement in schools until about six years ago. Scripture is what convicts us, so I will pray for conviction in the Church. I have also written down all the scriptures you ladies have given me in this forum with regards to homeschooling. I will be prepared to answer others with God’s word when they ask me why I homeschool. Thank you 🙂

  60. SavedbyGrace says:

    Personally, I hate paying taxes. 95% of what the government uses taxes for is ungodly, self motivated tripe purposed to keep the sheep in the sheep fold, with their collective heads down, chowing down on whatever propaganda they happen to fall for.

    I don’t care if it’s roads, schools, health care ( & make no mistake your taxes and mine will go up A LOT – thanks a lot! ), prisons or what have you. Most of it’s taxes w/o representation anymore because I don’t know that ANY Christian values are represented by our government any longer. But God put them in office and I do believe Scripture so – Render unto Caesar! I rest in the fact that judgement will come – God help them!

    As far as public schools – they are the pit of h***. They teach humanism and the Bible is cast down as the lowest form of self-abuse around. Yes, some people must use them there is no doubt. But many use them simply because its the easiest way to ditch the children so the parents can get back to their “life”.

    Children are a blessing from the Lord and it is the parents DUTY to educate them. If you choose to public school then it’s your choice. I would suggest that you do whatever you have to do to re-educate them with proper values after school if you can. Although with God all things are possible.

    When a child is indoctrinated into humanistic thinking 8 hours a day for 12 years it might be near impossible to turn them around. Public schools teach the lie of evolution ( an unproven, unprovable theory). If ones entire education is built upon a lie then one has been taught nothing and has in fact been indoctrinated into a world-view.

    Even when home educated children, who have solid Christian values, attend secular colleges, many, if not most, come out of that college w/o their Christian values intact and many completely turn away from their faith because of it. How might I ask is that “bringing up arrows for the LORD”?

    Now that’s part of my 2 cents. Argue if you will, but before you do, I’d ask you what does Scripture say? Render unto Caesar? Yes. Children are a blessing? Yes. Bring up your children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord? YES! The Bible does not say turn your children over to an ungodly institution to learn wrong thinking and then I’ll turn them around when they are grown up and out from under your authority, does it? No, it does not.

  61. Public School kills souls says:

    Again, for the others reading for whome this is a strange and new idea, while it’s one thing to say “I’m ok w/ paying taxes for X,” when you vote for it, you’re effectively “I want to pay taxes for X and I want everyone else to, also!” Because that’s what happens when something is voted into legislation. And while you might be ok w/ being taxed for something, and turn the other cheek, Jesus did not give you the option to turn away when you see your neighbor being wronged (robbed). The fact that they may not know what’s happening is no excuse to not help them. Please, protect your neighbor from the theft of wealth redistribution.

  62. Sylvia says:

    ‘And Sylvia, that was a very convicting post. America is the Best because we accept nothing less. That’s why we are different. And us wanting the best education and chastising Christians for sending their kids to public schools bc it is against scripture, is how we get the Best. Americans do not accept mediocrity, and we don’t measure ourselves against other countries, we measure ourselves according the the Best, and that is God.’

    If I may address this. Leaving alone the christian part for one minute if I can. America is the best to me because it is nation of immigrants where even now people from different countries (and I am talking legal immigration here), educated people from different parts of the world choose to come here. To sometimes leave their families. Through war, poverty or other circumstances. Albert Einstein is but one such example. Have you ever looked at the questionaire of becoming just a permanent resident let alone a citizen ? And the process involved ? I chose to though my heart hurt to give up the country of my birth. There is a thing called ‘brain drain’ which many third world countries attribute to the ‘brightest and the best’ leaving for western countries especially America.
    As for the christian part and the ‘going for home schooling because it is against scripture’ may I respectfully disagree on that. Your family may have reasons to choose to educate your children at home. And that is based on your culture, your way of life and how you interpret scripture. It is your choice. While I respect that I cannot agree or trust in your interpretation of scripture.
    The scripture is the same, but I have seen is it is interpreted in so many ways. Ever since I have landed in America christians have thrown bible verses at me that biblical feminity is only skirts. I come from a culture where our traditional dress is pants and a long top and we do not show legs. Hence I wear pants. And modest tops. On education, I came here on a US visa for higher education. Through prayer. I have seen christians in my native country use Genesis 24: 3,4 to interpret a horrific thing called caste as biblical though the truth is it existed centuries before christianity came to my native country.
    I use prayer and discrenment when people wrap things in bible verses. I come from a culture that places huge value on remaining pure before marriage for both sexes, living at home while single etc. But I was raised in private school, I mixed with people of many religions, but my faith was given by my family and my church. It is possible to raise children that way. My culture is proof of that. As it is proof that someone can still live thousands of miles from their parents, unmarried and still not date or choose to have an arranged marriage which parents have an input. Again the thousands that come from my native country are proof of that.

    • SavedbyGrace says:

      Sylvia, I won’t argue about the pants and such but educating children most certainly was given to parents and not the state system esp. when that system is as ungodly as it is. Deut. 6 is very clear: When you rise up, as walk along the road, and go to bed teach your children about God. IF you must spend hours unteaching ungodly learning you will never get around to teaching godly ideals.

      I understand you come at this from a different viewpoint culturally but scripturally the Bible is very clear. Interpretation or no. No where in scripture is it advocated that children should be taught ungodly ideas. No where.

      • Sylvia says:

        Thank you for the response.

        “I understand you come at this from a different viewpoint culturally but scripturally the Bible is very clear. Interpretation or no. No where in scripture is it advocated that children should be taught ungodly ideas. No where.”

        You live in a country where you have a choice. And you interpret scripture based on that. What is ‘ungoldly’ ? Everyone has their own definition of that.

        My parents did not have a choice. We had to go to school and in my native country if you needed to have a decent education or an English education it meant private school which you had to pay for. We went to christian private school, one that was run by the diocese. Many children of other religions studied with me. They were and are my friends. Christian schools are considered to have a good standard of education.
        I do not know if this is considered ungoldly by you. I consider it knowledge. Even in my christian school, our text books were mandated by the government. One of the things I know and our books had was creationism according to every major world religion and scientific theory. I can tell you what each major world religion believes, the gods they worship, whether they believe in re-birth or not etc. If you think for an instance that has shaken my faith or belief or made me question the bible, I can assure you absolutely not. Because the bible was the word of God.
        America has confused me with emphasis placed on theology and interpretations and people saying other christians are headed to hell if they do not dress a certain way, live a certain way etc, not knowing world religions. Any crisis of faith I had was here. I always went to church in my native country, taught sunday school, went on youth missions, I loved going to church. I was happy in church. In America, my family is church hopping. My family listens to sermons online. It is either souless mega churches or doctrine fights or politics. It is not pure worship, simple faith. Not in my experience.
        Faith is faith. You can stand in the midst of a pagan temple and even then hear the still, small voice of an Almighty God. You just have to listen. Not hide yourself from the rest of the world to hear it. Not in my experience.

        • SavedbyGrace says:

          Ungodly is anything not in line with Scripture or anything that God hates. Yes, many countries do not have choices. I didn’t disagree with that and I don’t criticize your choices. Yet, scripture is still clear, parents have the responsibility to educate their children according to God’s standards. It doesn’t matter “where” they are in the world. PARENTS are responsible according to God’s word and they, like the rest of us, will be judged by God’s word.

          Now, I haven’t condemned you or your family at all. I have spoken what Scripture says and I’ve spoken it in love w/o any malice. If you are offended there is nothing I can do about that because I’ve simply spoken what Scripture says. I have not interpreted it, I have stated it.

          Yes, America’s churches are suffering from worldly influence it is very difficult to find an honest, Bible preaching church. Prayer is the only way to find one.

          “You can stand in the midst of a pagan temple and even then hear the still, small voice of an Almighty God. ” Of course you can! But quite honestly, how likely is it that that will happen? How many people worshiping in a pagan temple are seeking God, the one true God of the Bible? If I look at the growth of religious cults in this country and the world – I’d say not many.

          That being said – WE are speaking of public schools and this is way off discussion.

          • Sylvia says:

            “Now, I haven’t condemned you or your family at all. I have spoken what Scripture says and I’ve spoken it in love w/o any malice. If you are offended there is nothing I can do about that because I’ve simply spoken what Scripture says. I have not interpreted it, I have stated it.”

            When you say the only way to raise Goldly children is through home schooling and interpret scripture while living in a country which gives you a choice like that, no you do not state it, you have interpreted it. And while I am not offended, it is hard to trust your interpretation as the truth because it is neither my experience or the only way to raise Godly christian children. Because if I believe that only your version is the scriptural way, it would make the the way my brother’s and cousin’s children are raised in a non-christian country attending private schools ungodly which does not give them a choice to home school. It will make the way my parents raised me ungodly. It will make the way people around the world who have never even heard of home schooling ungodly or not capable of raising good christians which is simply not true. To believe that is naive and the reason why so many things that American christians say whom I can agree with and have so much in common is something I cannot blindly trust though they say they mean it with love. People’s intention may be with love, but when people use simple things like home schooling or wearing skirts which is a choice they make as biblical and even attach salvation to it sometimes I cannot trust them at all. Which I did in a non-christian country. I trusted blindly. I did not care about who was interpreting what, their background, theology etc. Here I cannot.
            For me faith is faith, science is science. It is not mutually exclusive. Science does not have to prove God exists for me, virgin birth for me. God loves me and died for me. I believe in it because the Bible tells me. That is it. There are things that I will never understand until I die and I am ok with that. I was raised like that though I come from a country that places a heavy emphasis on science and math and education. It would astound you the amount of science I know, but I also know the bible and what I believe in. God cannot be put in a test tube. He is beyond that. My native ountry and culture have a lot of scientists of many religions. They are deeply spiritual people, not atheists.
            I was raised in a country with 70 children in a classroom, my parents supplented my education. I was taught how to clean and cook, but never to vaccuum because we only sweep floors and did not have a carpet. I have never seen a carpet or a bathtub or a vaccuum cleaner before I came here. I learned how to do coin operated laundry though the way I was taught to wash clothes was soak and wash in buckets. I was taught to wash tile floors, never wood floors because we do not have that in my native country. So I hired a maid service and watched them like a hawk until I learned how to clean wood floors.
            The education my parents gave me helped me come to a country like America from a third world country, the life skills they taught me helped me live and adapt in a strange culture. My biblical education and faith was taught by my parents and churchhas even now sustained my faith when I live in a christian country where the version of christianity that is not like I expected. They did not home school me, they did not have a choice. But the christian education they gave me has sustained me all through my life. So please forgive me if I find it hard to believe the only way to raise Godly christians is through home schooling and it is biblical.

            • Jennifer says:

              That’s exactly how I feel, Sylvia. I appreciate the discussion here, I realize things have gotten bad and I now have my guard up more than ever, but I’ve also had a wonderful experience at school. My parents are not unGodly; I’ve remained close to them, have learned MANY things at home, and the bottom line is that I trust my parents, more than anyone online. With this statement I am NOT asking anyone here to recant or offer a disclaimer; I’m simply stating my own case.

              • Sylvia says:

                For people who are immigrants like me, America is a golden country LOL. It has its faults and it is not perfect, but I almost always find things that are better here when it comes to education, social services etc.
                There are other things I wish are better in America . Marriage, family, churches, christianity and so on.

            • SavedbyGrace says:

              Sylvia, I don’t believe I said homeschooling was the only way or the right way for that matter. I said the public school system in America is the pit of h***. I said if you do send them to public school that you have a harder time teaching biblical principles because they are taught humanism in America’s public schools. Humanism is contradictory to Biblical principles. I come at this from the stand point of having lived here my entire life and seeing the deterioration of our education system. You do not.

              I do not have the benefit or detriment of having grown up in a different culture. Quite frankly, for this discussion, it is irrelevant. What we are talking about is the DETERIORATION OF AMERICA’S PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM ( caps for emphasis not yelling ).

              I have not interpreted. You tell me, does Scripture say parents are responsible or does it not? Of course it does. It doesn’t say that living in a political environment where you can’t educate your children at home is a sin. I have most certainly not said that either. That, my sister, is why people from your country come to mine. So they have the choice. It is when there is a choice to homeschool or send children to learn in an ungodly institution that the question of sin comes into play. When there is a choice — I said CHOICE. I also said the question of sin – I did not say it was sin. But scripture does say that for those who know the right thing to do and don’t do it, it is sin. James 4:17 We must teach our children to obey scripture! Homeschooled, public, private or not at all.

              Parents are responsible for how their children are taught. We are told to bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. We are responsible to do that no matter what government we live under. It is possible for the church to flourish under any and all circumstances otherwise the church would have been destroyed time and time again throughout history. God is in control and He works everything out to His plan. Which I am not privy to – thank you very much!

              As far as trusting my interpretation, I didn’t interpret, that is what the Scripture says. Go read it for yourself. Practice being a Berean. Study daily, find out what it says and obey it. Parents train up your children in the way they should go!

              • Sylvia says:

                I did not attend public school in America, so I do not have the experience to talk intelligently about that. But we have chosen to public school my children.
                I will not argue with you about parents training up their children. I absolutely agree with you on that. If you think for a minute though I do and will send my children to public school I will let them shape my children in any way, shape or form or they will be the primary influence on them, absolutely not.
                Why do we public school ? My husband and I are American citizens by choice, our children are by birth. This is the only country they will love, not two like my husband and I . Unlike us, this is home for them. If we home school them the only people they will see is people who look like us. We socialize mostly with people from our native country. Any American friends we have are work friends. My church family is non existent, They do not know things like Thanksgiving that a typical American celebrates. I want them to fit in with people of all types. I have no clue about American history. I do not expect the public school system to bear the responsibility of educating them. It will be upon my husband and me. We fully expect to supplement it. Already math and science we do and they also know how to read and write two native languages and speak of course which is very important to us.
                As for christianity and values, it will come from us. Just like my parents and in-laws taught my husband and I. We will raise our children the same way we were raised. The way our parents raised us. Without home schooling. But with education and lots of scripture and pray, pray, pray. My parents used to pray for my future husband when I was child. I used to laugh. Now I know better and do the same for my children.
                The thing that scares me is the lack of a church family for them. That is why we are trying very hard to find one so they can go to Sunday school and have friends there. My mother always used to say children are given by God on loan. We only have them for a season. We do our best and give them to Him.
                My parents are and were the biggest influence in my life. Next to God. Now my inlaws too. My husband and I will raise them the way we were raised, attending schools and through prayer. I do not know a better way for our family.

                • SavedbyGrace says:

                  I’m taking a break – I just ran a sewing machine needle through my finger!!! Not bad but enough to take a break – that’s why I’m back, ’cause I wasn’t coming back today. 🙂 I may manage to be pitiful enough for dinner out tonight though. 😉 Terrible aren’t I?

                  Sylvia, your family will have to do what the rest of us do – muddle through the best way we know how. We all strive to understand what the Lord has for us ( which comes from studying scripture )and we strive to obey. If we love HIM we will obey HIM.

                  I will say this. I’d guess from the little that I know that our schools are even now less about indoctrination than many other nations schools. That being said, as a Christian family we all have to be sure that our children are brought up in the nurture & admonition of the LORD. I’ve never once suggested that you weren’t doing that. I’ve suggested that that is much harder to do when a public school is involved.

                  Why don’t you have a church family? You may have said on other posts but I don’t remember. If you came to this coutry for the benefits why don’t you socialize more with Christian Americans? (I think that’s what I might put on the next form I fill out.) Apparently you’ve experienced some difficulty?

                  I hate to say this but if you honestly think your children aren’t going to be VERY affected by the public school environment then you are sadly mistaken. Or is that why you choose not to socialize with Americans outside of school?

                  It is a proven fact that schools affect children in a bad way. What will you do when sex ed is brought up and alternative lifestyles are okayed by the leaders of your public school? What will you do when the lesson of “parents can’t control you, you don’t have to obey them” sink into your children’s minds? Have you ever heard the song “Be careful little eyes what you see”? Once it’s in their mind it’s very hard to get it out. Why let it be put in at all?

                  • Jennifer says:

                    Grace, your arguments are strong and your words full of..grace! 🙂 Thank you. And I am sorrrryyy about your finger!

                  • Sylvia says:

                    I’ve had a crisis of faith which I did not expect when I came to America. This is a christian country and I had hoped to develop my faith etc.
                    But for lack of a better description, I wandered in a spiritual desert for years. What it seems looking in is prosperity Gospels or mega churches with no personal attention or power point sermons which so offend me. Speaking the word of God is a privilege to me and a good preacher does not need bells and whistles, just the Holy Spirit. Maybe it is a cultural thing for me, but I’d rather not go to such a church. I come from a country where less than 10% is christian, so I have never really had to focus on doctrine or theology or which baptism is the ‘real baptism’ immersion or confirmation or anything like that. Catholics were considered ‘christian’ from where I come from, in America they were not. I was shocked. I knew the difference between them was the pope and they were ceremonial and they had a bishop appointed from Rome. But I did not realize they were almost a different religion. We had a diocese where all denominations were under one bishop. I have since realized I am over simplifying it. But bottom line, there was not much emphasis placed on doctrine, theology, denominations like America.
                    I have had to really examine what I believe in, what christianity means to me. And that christianity the religion and Christ the God are different. Remember to focus only on the Shepherd and not the flawed sheep that liked different types of grass :(. Learn to spit out the seeds and eat the fruit for everyone has something I can learn from.
                    I’ve had to pray for grace over and over again to sustain me through my doubts and wanderings because I was so scared I will lose my faith especially when people scared me with going to hell for not making their choices. We home church as in pray at home. The only home schooling we could say is the bible. My husband and I pray at home, we teach our children bible lessons at home. But it is not the same like we were brought up or having a vibrant church family. But my faith in God has been strengthened and my christian growth is much more through my experience though I wish I did not have to go through that. But as He says, ‘He led me to green pastures and stil waters’.

                    As for what will happen when my children learn things they are not supposed to, I like certain aspects of the public school system and wish my native country was like that. But I have strong belief in my culture and the way I was raised. There were a lot of non-christians, I have even read their holy books. But my faith was never tested. And many non-christians went to my christian school. They were taught to pray etc, but they are all strong in their faith, Going to a christian school has not converted them. I just know how to do it I suppose, not actually say it or write about it :(. Ultimately though I trust God.

                    • Jennifer says:

                      Sylvia, you’re a beautifully spoken and wise woman. Don’t worry; God has and will lead you 🙂 I hope you will consider the writings of Max Lucado, Charles Swindoll, Liz Curtis Higgs and Beth Moore to name a few! They’re wonderful writers and versatile Christians.

  63. Public School kills souls says:

    As “Visting” (Sept 2, 11:22 pm) pointed out, those who advocate Public Schools are not addressing the (over 20 at that time) Scriptures posted by those against Public schooling. I beg those people who avoid those Scriptures to look again, because

    Jesus “replied, My mother and brothers are those who hear God’s word and put it into practice.” Luke 8:21

    Jesus “replied, Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and *obey* it.” Luke 11:28 (emphasis mine)

    “There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words” John 12:48 (remember, Jesus’ words are in the whole Bible, not just the red letters). Treasure God’s Law.

    “Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.” James 1:22

    “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him” 1 John 2:5

    The Bible tells us over and over again that it is by out deeds and obedience to God’s Word that we know we are His. Because it is in your deeds that your faith is revealed – do you have faith in your own understanding, your own equivocation, or in the simple Word of God? I know that we come to understanding of things at different times, but I urge you to revisit those Scriptures (now more than 30 I believe) about teaching, discipling, Law, truth, and the faith/obedience. And study them, pray about them. You obedience as a Christain depends on your growth as a Christian, but your growth as a Christian then depends on your obedience (otherwise you sear you conscience).

  64. visiting says:

    Sylvia, thank you for sharing. It’s interesting that your experience was what James Tooley found around the world, as written in The Beautiful Tree that I mentioned before, that families are being better served by private education than public schools.

    You see the US public schools as a huge improvement over public schools elsewhere and no doubt they often are. However, many Americans see how the public schools have deteriorated and of course that is upsetting. On a government site the report called “A Nation at Risk” said that “If an unfriendly foreign power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war.”

    http://www2.ed.gov/pubs/NatAtRisk/risk.html

    WallBuilders, in Original Intent and America’s Godly Heritage, noted deterioration in schools and in society taking off from the time when prayer was officially removed from schools in the early 1960’s, which they show on graphs and will email to those asking for them.
    1-800-873-2845 http://www.wallbuilders.com/

    How to pay for an alternative to public education?

    “School Is Expensive, but…”
    http://www.schoolandstate.org:80/Knowledge/Drennan/SchoolIsExpensiveBut.htm

    “What About the Poor?”
    http://www.schoolandstate.org:80/Knowledge/CardiffWhatAboutPoor.htm

    And what about vouchers?
    http://www.schoolandstate.org/Knowledge/Vouchers/MainVoucherPage.htm

    Whether for academic or spiritual reasons, many people don’t see public schools being the answer for education anymore than it was in your own situation.

  65. Word Warrior says:

    Sylvia,

    I understand why you had a crisis of faith when coming to America; this “Christian” country vaguely resembles Christianity on many levels. Calling one a Christian and being a true follower of Christ are two different things; this is why Jesus warns that “many will say to me “Lord, Lord”…and I will say, “Depart from Me, I never knew you”.

    Having said that, it is with the deepest sincerity and love that I talk about these things. As we consider how we will raise the precious treasure of children the Lord “loans” us, as you accurately stated, we are bound to follow only Scripture and the principles therein for our guidance. We will not answer for how our parents did things, or our pastor, or neighbor, etc.

    True, we all interpret Scripture differently and that causes mass confusion. However, for those who want to see it, God’s Word has plenty to say about our responsibility for HOW our children are to be taught, WHAT they are to be taught, and BY WHOM they ought to be taught. Just because there is no “though shalt not send thy child to public school” doesn’t mean we ignore,

    “thou shalt teach them of me in the morning, during the day, in the night–all the time. You shall not subject them to the counsels of the ungodly. You shall not suffer them to be the companion of fools (not even for socialization’s sake). You shall avoid false teaching and hate that which is against Me. You shall delight in what is true and righteous, and shun what is not. The student shall become like his teacher. Above all seek wisdom and make that your aim.”

    If you’ve read my earlier comments, I’ve even quoted proponents of the PS system who openly state their intent–“to destroy the rotting corpse of Christianity through the classroom”.

    I understand that America looks great compared to maybe your country. It’s only because we are still reaping the blessings of having godly men and women who loved the Lord and held to tightly to His principles. Our country is declining quickly. The people are being deceived through subtle tactics (mostly indoctrinated through the public school system).

    As long as Christians continue to turn a blind eye to the crumbling foundations of the educational system, the foundations that hate God and are bent on wiping out Christianity, insisting that it’s “good” for their children, we will slip and crumble as well. We are not above Rome.

    “Radical” they say of those who call the PS system “evil”. God calls anything that isn’t *for* Him “evil”. By definition, I have no choice than to be radical.

    • Sylvia says:

      Kelly,

      Thank you for your response.

      In a country like I was raised, government schools was the equivalent of a public school. As in it was free. The standard is so dismal and the medium of instruction is in my native tongue. I could not even have had a job in another state in the same country as each state has a distinct langauge let alone a country like America. So everyone in a middle class family went to private school. It is very expensive. Our schools were crowded and it was impossible for the teacher to give any personal attention. It was expected parents pay attention. We had something called open school day where parents met teachers and we had report cards, tests etc. In my native country, going to college is not a choice, it is mandatory, well not if you want to have a job that pays a living wage. We have a very distinct social structure and only poor people have the skjills to build houses for instance. It is so bad that little children go to work. They do not have an education as in they do not know how to read or write or count money. Neither do their parents. They are constantly cheated. And this goes on for generation after generation. Even middle class people have to pay to borrow books from the library.
      I come from such a country. Where the type of education and the opportunities you have is directly tied the social class of your family. I obviously had a good education. But I was one of the lucky ones.
      That is not the case in America. I love that my taxes give all children including mine a ‘free education’ though the quality could always be improved. I love that libraries are free. I love books, can you imagine what a pleasant shock it was for someone like me ? I visit a lot of home school blogs because of the books for children they recommend. Half the books I myself have never read. I can only look at America through my life experiences and what I see has its flaws, because nothing is perfect, but it is so wonderful.

      As for teaching my children, I will teach them the way my parents taught me. We went to school from 8:30 to 4 PM. When we came home it was 5:00 PM. We had lots of homework. But my christian education was never neglected. We had bible lessons every day. To live as a christian in a non-christian country and work, study and be friends with people from all religions has taught me the value of ‘many are called, but few are chosen’. I was born in a non-christian country of less than 10% christian. It was the pure grace of God I know who He is. I do not ever take that for granted. And I will surely teach my children of Him as my parents and inlaws taught me and my husband for we consider that of paramount importance. I do not think home school is really necessary for that or the only way to do that.

    • Sylvia says:

      ADDENDUM to previous post

      http://www.amazon.com/Dared-Call-Him-Father-Encounter/dp/0800790715

      I would encourage all to please read a book called ‘I dared to call him Father’ by Bilquis Sheikh. It is a story of a muslim Pakistani woman who was very high born and God used the Quran of all things to speak to her.

      You will perhaps understand why I think faith and knowing God is not the same as being a christian. Neither is it given by being born in a christian family, country or being home schooled. You can teach the bible, but faith in Christ to lead us through anything cannot be taught, it is given by the Grace of God IMO.

      I personally know many christians who underwent secret baptisms and became christians all because of missionaries. My own ancestors were like that.

      • Public School kills souls says:

        “faith in Christ to lead us through anything cannot be taught, it is given by the Grace of God IMO.”

        Yes, it comes from the grace of God. Yet, God commands us to teach about Him all day long to our own children. Faith comes through hearing, we know (Rom 10:17). And that teaching is forbidden in the Public Schools by our gov’t, and commanded to the parents by God- all day long, at every opportunity. Whatever value you see in our public schools, they are rebellious to God.

        • Jennifer says:

          People are rebelling against that system, PSKS. I hope to see a change by the time my kids are of age, assuming they don’t go to the same schools I did.

        • Sylvia says:

          I have nothing against home schooling. And I will be the first to acknowledge public schooling is not perfect. But if you are asking me if home schooling is the only way to teach about God or have children with strong faith, the answer is not in my experience. I do not need to depend on public school to teach about God. My husband and I will. Like my parents and inlaws taught us both.
          I attended a christian school where lots of non-christians studied. Christians schools have a reputation for good education. We had daily assembly with prayer which all students attended. The ten commandments were all over the school. So was the Lord’s prayer. We had a school chapel. By your argument all these people would have become christian. They are not. They still adhere to their faith because their families taught them. My faith was not given to me by the school I attended or my teachers. I was educated in Math, Science, Languages, History, Geography etc. which my parents supplemented. My faith was taught by my family and my church, not my school. I do not depend on American public school to completely educate my child or worse teach my child faith. My husband and I are fully capable of doing that. As did my parents and inlaws. I do not need tgem to be home with me for that.
          Also teaching your child bible verses or even memorizing the Bible does not guarantee faith. It only teaches the bible. Faith is personal, faith comes through experience. Then how do you explain people who live in communist countries, countries where people are persecuted, where you cannot even open a bible. They are not taught the bible 24/7, do not go to christian school or anything. But please read some books about christians in non-christian countries. Perhaps you will understand why I say teaching the bible 24/7 or even every day is not necessary to grow in faith.

          This is the faith I know, that comes only from the grace of God that will let you stand against anything for Him. If you are interested, here are more books.

          http://www.amazon.com/Singing-through-Night-Courageous-Persecuted/dp/0800731980/ref=pd_sim_b_6

          http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Believers-Happens-Muslims-Believe/dp/0800732642/ref=pd_sim_b_1

          • Public School kills souls says:

            Sylvia

            1. I did not ask you to homeschool. I would gladly and highly recommend it, but I did not ask you to.

            2. “By your argument all these people would have become christian.”
            –Thas was not my argument At ALL. My argument is that it is our God given duty to train our children all day long. Do NOT put words in my mouth, that’s bearing false witness. Quite the epidemic the last few days.

            3. “But please read some books about christians in non-christian countries.”—First, you are making assumptions about my reading habits. Don’t. Second, you are placing earthly books over God’s commands. Don’t.

            4. “teaching the bible 24/7 or even every day is not necessary to grow in faith.” –But teaching the Bible to our children 24/7 or every day is a requirement for thos IN the faith already. As I posted yesterday, the Bible repeatedly says that your faith is evidenced in your obedience. Like your obedience to train your children as God commanded. Like your obedience to NOT rob your neighbor to pay for your child’s education. Like your obedience to stand up against evil-doers as they try to rob your neighbor to pay for their child’s education. Or your obedience to not allow IDOLATERS (those who worship and honor the human mind over God’s Word)to train your child, or fund those idolatrous institutions any more than you are legally required to (do you also voluntarily send money to Muslim organization who want to wipe out Christianity? Because that’s what the Secular Humanists want to do).

            • Public School kills souls says:

              By the way, at the risk of pointing out the obvious, there is a *huge* difference in living faith under uninformed (inwillfully ignoragnt),hostile, persecutive situations outside of your control, and *voluntarily* sending your child to try to live out their faith under uninformed (there is no true wisdom in the public school, because the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and there is not fear of the Lord there), hostile, persecutive situations – I repeat, voluntarily, on purpose. This huge difference is obedience. In this free country, you are given the choice to train up your little Christains as God commanded. You are given the choice about sending your children to the wolves at young ages (under adult), and you choose to take the easy way (prepackaged, prepaid by theft) instead of God’s way. Yet you insist that God will let everything work out. Your children are in danger, Sylvia, and you’re equivocating. You keep comparing our country to your old country, and not to God’s standards in the Bible. This is deadly.

              • Sylvia says:

                I respectfully disagree, PSKS

                I want to tell a story. Most of us have taken the hand of a young child and taught them how to write. The feeling is wonderful.

                But I have also taken the wrinkled hand of an old woman, who has worked hard her whole life with her hands and because they were poor and belonged to a lower caste. This woman could not read a word, but she had wonderful faith. I took her hand and started to write her name, she asked me to help her write instead the name of Jesus as He was the one that has sustained her through her life. I cried that day. She lived in a one room mud hut she shared with a large family, if there is a word below poor, she was that. She had a hard life, bent body, but her spirit. That is the faith I want to have. That does not come from reading the Bible. That comes from believing in God and trusting him. That cannot be taught. I believe it is a gift from God.

                Where you see Anti-God, I see a society free to worship Him. China is anti-God, the Soviet Union (before the fall of the wall) was Anti-God. Not America. I come from a large democracy. We too have freedom of religion. But in some pockets of the country, christians are routinely killed. We’ve had stones thrown at us during church by a radical religious party which is scary. If that happens in America I will be the first person to say Anti-God. I see instead a wonderful country which millions around the world would literally die to come.

                America is a land of churches, it is like a buffett that people are gorging themselves that they seemed to have forgotten the simple things. Christianity is so simple. I know faiths that have so many rituals and demand so much out of their followers. The Christianity I grew up with does not. American christians have so many versions of what to do and what not to do for salvation. I’ve seen politics, theology, doctrine, dress, way of life attached to obedience and salvation which I find hard to believe.

                I will train up my children in the faith and fear of the Lord, not by hiding them from the world. It is possible to teach the fear of the Lord without making them read the bible 24/7. So many cult leaders recite the bible by heart. Does that make them Godly ? That makes them scary. David Koresh was one of them.

                My parents taught me faith and prayer. That sustained through my doubts in America. Everyone I turned to had different explanations. I threw myself at the mercy of Him and asked for grace. And for years my only prayer was ‘choose me, never let me go even if I let go’. I have chosen to live in a civilized society, not a remote island. I cannot protect them always. What my children will be taught is that whatever they see, hear will not affect their belief in the Lord. That there are things that are beyong understanding. Which is lost in America IMO. And I will be on my knees for them. That if they ever have a crisis of faith, their will throw themselves at His mercy and not decide to walk away which I have seen happen more and more in America.

                • Public School kills souls says:

                  Sylvia – why do you ask me to read your long posting when you will not read our posting well enough to actually represent us truly? I claimed that our country was a free country! However, public school is theft. You keep saying that you’re a Christian, but claiming that you do NOT need God’s Word to have faith. This is NOT Christianity. This is New-Age Mysticism. You claim you do not need God’s word to serve God? I would like to see God’s Word to support your claim.

                  • Sylvia says:

                    PSKS, the reason I’ve dancing around you is because I am afraid if I give my reply as to what I really want to say, I will come across like disrespecting Kelley and her ministry first. I will come across like I tar all the good people who home school their children who I like on this website with the same brush like I will be painting you. I so do not want to do that.

                    Let me say this clearly. This is only FOR you.

                    Any willingness I had for even listening to you was lost when you called taxes ‘theft’ and public school paid for by theft. How are taxes theft ? Much as I like to not pay so much and like to pretend my home is my castle truth is I need roads to get there, lights to light them, a fire department that will respond if my home is on fire and a police department to call upon if someone tried to break into my house and a jail to lock up criminals. Who is going to pay for this ? Charity ? Am I supposed to ride horses if there are no roads ?

                    And every country has some form of military. Even ceremonial like the Vatican. Who is supposed to pay for all this? Are we supposed to take up a collection ?

                    Most countries be it ruled by communists, dictators etc have some roads, lights, police, fire dept and military. They pay for it depriving their people. In America and other civilized countries, even third world countries there is some form of tax. Western countries like America go further by paying for schools, libraries and Canada heathcare.

                    We may argue about the merits of all this, but a blanket statement about taxes are theft and the public school system is paid for by theft and using scripture to somehow make that ‘biblical’ is twisting scripture. I have met people in America and the world over who do the same for twisting scripture for politics, dress, covering their head etc.

                    You want to home school and if you feel so strongly and you live in a country that lets you do that, it is your choice. But do not wrap it up in scripture like you wrap up your taxes view. I am willing to listen to reasonable arguments. Not crazy ones. You can throw scripture like confetti at me and call me a bad christian and going to hell. Does not scare me or change me. Been there, had that experience.

                    Any choice I make I will do it with prayer because some day I will have to stand before God and answer Him. I do not believe I am disobeying God by not home schooling. I have found a lot of websites including Kelley’s that have helped me grow in faith and supplemeted my children’s education.

                    I am not scared of sending my children to public school. I do not consider that indoctrination. I love America and consider it a wonderful country where there is true freedom of religion. I am not afraid someone will throw me in jail for saying the Lord’s name, torture me, kill me, rape me, abort my child as so many people around the world are facing every day in His name. I am glad God brought me here, my children were born here. My parents paid through their nose for an education for me. My taxes give my children and others like them a ‘free’ education without discriminating against social class, caste or any such thing. I have faith in the way I was raised and my husband was raised. And that is how I will raise them. So that if God takes them thousands of miles away, what I taught them will stick with them like what my parents taught me has stuck with me all these years.

                    • Public School kills souls says:

                      Sylvia. I did NOT say all taxes are theft. You are putting words into someone else’s mouth *again!* I do day that the taxes that fund public schools are stolen. That is NOT saying that all taxes are theft. That is saying *some* taxes are theft. Is this clear? If it is not clear, please ask me about it. Please do not put words into my mouth again. Please stop accusing me of saying things I have obviously not said (obviously because it’s literally in black and white). I did NOT make a blanket statement about taxes, you attributed one to me.

                      What makes one tax theiving and another non-theiving? God’s word. God outlined the several forms of gov’t: civil, church, family, self, and Divine, the first four being separate, and under the Divine. The first four can not steal authority from the other w/out repurcussions. So, we know that the civil gov’t should be the civil punisher of evil – (Romans 13:4). I support taxation to that end, w/in reason (less than 10% or it claims God-status). That is the role God gave civil rulers, they do not get to usurp more. They don’t get to be in the “welfare” business except protecting private citizens w/ the sword, because God specifically gave that responsibility to the Church and families (too many Scripture to list here). The civil gov’t does not get to, say, redistribute wealth because that would be stealing, breaking a commandment. It is also being “respecter of persons” whether you’re favoring the rich, or the poor, etc. One law, one standard for all.

                      I ALSO believe in limiting the Federal government’s ability to tax for things like welfare, or to even be in the business of education and welfare, because we are under the Constitution, which *limits* our central gov’t to the “Enumerated Powers” (a concept largely ignored).

                      Why do you fight me on this? On the one hand you speak out loudly against people who make claims not in the Bible (allegedly attaching wearing skirts/dresses or homeschooling to salvation – see 9/3 1:23 PM), yet you too are making claims that I can’t find in the Bible, and you won’t help me out by directing me to where I can see. I am only asking you for biblical supports – which is what all Christians must do – hold up all doctrines to the Scripture (see Gal 3, or Acts 17:11). You condemn false doctrine on the one hand and want to impose false doctrine w/ the other -you said “faith comes from experience” but Romans 10:17 says “faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.” Now, what you say about faith coming through experience sounds like it could be plausible, but I can’t find it. I’ve been looking and looking. I did find Rom 10:17, and also found 2 Tim 3:15 “the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.”
                      Please. Where is your support for what you claim? Why do you get to make claims of Scripture that you do not support, but you condemn unscriptural claims in others? I am sincerely asking for your Scriptures.

                      Also you say, “That does not come from reading the Bible. That comes from believing in God and trusting him.” (9/4 11:24 AM)
                      –Let me ask you a question. If you do not have the Word of God to read, how will you known what to trust? If someone says you must wear a skirt to have salvation, how do you know if they’re telling the truth? If someone says you have to go on a pilgramage to Rome to go to Heaven (or go there sooner after a long wait in Purgatory), how will you know if it’s the truth? If someone tells you you they met an angel, and that angel gave them a new word, how will you know whether you can trust them? God does not offer a New Revelation anymore – but how do we know that even? It’s in the Bible (Rev 22:18). So. Reading your Bible is how you know what to trust. Reading your Bible is how you write God’s word in your heart. Reading your Bible is how you bring the power of God over your heart, mind and soul (since you’re regenerate).

                      Well, that’s what I’m doing. I’m taking this doctrine: it’s ok to take someone’s money for books, education, roads, on and on, as long as you vote for it, even though God protects private property in the 10 Commandments and beyond; or “it’s ok to send your children to an idolatrous institution for 7 hours a day even though God said for parents to teach their children His Laws all day long,

                      and I am holding it up to Scripture, as Scripture commands me to. Because whom should I trust? You, or God?

                      By holding your claims up to Scripture, I am holding you to Scripture. Your claims cannot defend themselves. I am not saying you’re a bad Christian or that you’re going to Hell. I am holding up a claim, a doctrine, to Scripture. That’s all.

                      You love God’s Word. I love God’s Word. Let’s look at it together. Show me.

      • visiting says:

        Sylvia, I read I Dared to Call Him Father. From what I remember, she had the Quran and the Bible as well. When she asked God which one was the truth, He spoke in her heart: In which one do you know me as Father?

        • Sylvia says:

          This is what I remember visiting.

          She started reading the Quran to find peace. There were repeated references to Jesus. She became curious and asked her driver who was christian to bring her a bible which he was scared to because she was a high born muslim woman and he could be killed for that. After some days of asking a bible mysteriously appeared which was distributed by one of the missionaries. Very ordinary and even cheap looking. She started reading it. The astounding thing about this story was the series of dreams she has. In one of the dreams in the beginning, if I remember right, though her Quran was very beautiful to look at, her ordinary bible shone.

          Then she started praying and called God ‘Abba,father’ hence the title. There are so many things that flies in the face of theology and ‘right’ way to do in that book. She had a grandson with her whom she brought to America. She must be very old now if she is alive. I would love to meet her someday if she is.

          • visiting says:

            Sylvia, I just did a search on her name. She had moved back to Pakistan and died in 1997. What a beautiful woman, inside and out.

  66. stephanie says:

    Hmmm not the person or school site I would have chosen to encourage home schooling over public education. I just browsed through his web site – which if I read correctly he is a teacher at a private school.

    His points were lame in my opinion – did not like rules? Private schools have rules and I am sure the parents who homeschool have rules.

    I can agree with some points mentioned in posts supporting homeschooling over public schools. But I do not think the referenced article supports what most of the people are saying.

    He also mentions his distaste for school spirit etc….The institue sells items with their school logo on it – hmmmm

    Anyway, my point is not to insult you.

    • Public School kills souls says:

      Stephanie, he did not say he did not like rules – don’t accuse him of something he didn’t say. He spoke of the detriment of “too many arbitrary, minute, and burdensome impositions… irrational, punitive norms (that) delegitimize all norms in the eyes of many.” Big difference.

      “But I do not think the referenced article supports what most of the people are saying.” The point was not for the article to support what we said after the article was published – the point was for the article to start an open discussion, which it did very well.

      “He also mentions his distaste for school spirit etc….The institue sells items with their school logo on it – hmmmm”
      –Are you talking about the Mises Institute? He merely published an article with them. It’s not a conventional school, with a football team and cheerleaders.

      from the “about” page: “the world center of the Austrian School of economics and libertarian political and social theory…(offering) many thousands of hours of audio and video, thousands of free books in the literature section along with the full run of rare and wonderful journals, biographies and bibliographies of great economists”

      So, you know, no homecoming dance or anything. 😉

  67. Sylvia says:

    I have nothing against home schooling. And I will be the first to acknowledge public schooling is not perfect. But if you are asking me if home schooling is the only way to teach about God or have children with strong faith, the answer is not in my experience. I do not need to depend on public school to teach about God. My husband and I will. Like my parents and inlaws taught us both.
    I attended a christian school where lots of non-christians studied. Christians schools have a reputation for good education. We had daily assembly with prayer which all students attended. The ten commandments were all over the school. So was the Lord’s prayer. We had a school chapel. By your argument all these people would have become christian. They are not. They still adhere to their faith because their families taught them. My faith was not given to me by the school I attended or my teachers. I was educated in Math, Science, Languages, History, Geography etc. which my parents supplemented. My faith was taught by my family and my church, not my school. I do not depend on American public school to completely educate my child or worse teach my child faith. My husband and I are fully capable of doing that. As did my parents and inlaws. I do not need tgem to be home with me for that.
    Also teaching your child bible verses or even memorizing the Bible does not guarantee faith. It only teaches the bible. Faith is personal, faith comes through experience. Then how do you explain people who live in communist countries, countries where people are persecuted, where you cannot even open a bible. They are not taught the bible 24/7, do not go to christian school or anything. But please read some books about christians in non-christian countries. Perhaps you will understand why I say teaching the bible 24/7 or even every day is not necessary to grow in faith.

    This is the faith I know, that comes only from the grace of God that will let you stand against anything for Him. If you are interested, here are more books.

    Secret Believers: What Happens When Muslims Believe in Christ (Brother Andrew)

    Singing through the Night: Courageous Stories of Faith from Women in the Persecuted Church (Anneke Companjen)

    • Sylvia says:

      ADDENDUM –

      Sorry this was addressed to PSKS. I clicked the wrong button 🙁

    • Word Warrior says:

      Sylvia,

      “I do not depend on American public school to completely educate my child or worse teach my child faith.”

      That’s unfortunate. Because the children in our public school systems, your children if you send them there, ARE being taught a faith. “Secular humanism” is the openly taught religion. I BEG you to listen again:

      “I am convinced that the battle for humankind’s future
      must be waged and won in the public school classroom
      by teachers that correctly perceive their role
      as proselytizers of a new faith: a religion of humanity…that recognizes and respects the spark of what theologians
      call divinity in every human being…The classroom must and will become an arena of conflict between the old and new — the rotting corpse of Christianity, together with all its adjacent evils and misery, and the new faith of humanism…”
      J. Dunphy

      • Sylvia says:

        Kelly,

        If you only know what I was exposed to. So many things that many christians in America will be shocked and horrified at. But it never shook my faith.

        I have met people who were indoctrined, but never lost their faith. They do not know much about the bible. But they only held on to God.

        I have met people who do not know how to read or write and who have never read a bible verse even if they could. They are tribal people, villagers. But if you could see their faith. It is so child like.

        That is the faith I grew up with. That I lost for a while when I came to America. Everything else is noise. That is what I learned.

        Public school. Private school. Home school. Does not matter where. He holds my future and that of my children. The only thing my husband and I need to focus on is Him. And be on our knees. Like our parents. Nothing else. And He will take care.

        • Amy says:

          Sylvia,

          I love you sister. I spend much time in prayer for our brothers and sisters of the persecuted church and it thrills my heart to hear of the strong, unshakeable faith you speak of from our Christian family in the country of your birth. I agree that most Christians in America would be shocked to hear of some of the atrocities that believers in your native country, and many other countries, have been exposed to. I agree that despite seemingly impossible odds, their faith remains strong, and the fact that they continue to stand in the face of tremendous persecution adorns the Gospel well. It is beautiful GRACE! Grace poured out on His children, faith given from God. However, it is my understanding that while many of the Persecuted Church don’t know much of the Word, and do not have a copy of the Bible, and for many it is dangerously illegal for them to have a Bible, they plead for copies in their tongue and the ability to read it. They want to know more of His Word and all His instructions so that they may follow them. So while their circumstances may force a very simple faith (and by that I only mean that they don’t know much of the Bible), it does not mean that they don’t yearn for more, that they don’t yearn for the full counsel of God found complete in the Bible. Theology is not a bad thing, it is not a stifling thing. The Church in the West has access to study and know in depth what God has to say on any given subject. And ‘to whom much is given, much is required’. Not every believer is able to systematically study the Word of God. Those who are able to have an obligation to do so and be a source of encouragement to those who are not able to. Our persecuted brothers and sisters build the faith of the Body of Christ as they boldly stand against opposition. And those of us who have been blessed with freedom build the faith of the Body of Christ as we pray for and support our persecuted Church, through encouragement and passing on the knowledge and wisdom gained by studying God’s Word in depth…therefore, discipling the nations.

          I believe it is a bit naive to think that it doesn’t matter where a person educates their children. Of course it matters. There is no such thing as a neutral education, ANYwhere! The Bible clearly states if you’re not for Him, you’re against Him. No neutral. Input/Output, what goes in is what comes out. It’s not that there aren’t exceptions to just about everything, because there are. It’s more of an issue of, why, when given a choice (unlike what your parents and inlaws had), would you choose the most difficult choice for passing on your faith to your children? Perhaps it is that you are simply not aware of all the facts. The public school system is not neutral. They will be teaching a ‘religion’ to all students. It’s the perfect education for a secular humanist, agnostic, atheist, socialist, etc. It’s the worst education for a Christian. (and this is not to mention that it is the parents to whom God gives the responsibility to educate…and you can’t separate any field of learning from a Biblical worldview, b/c He created it all! 🙂 ) Yes, there are some godly teachers and pricipals and students here and there, but to openly practice their Christian faith is against the law in the ps system. The SYSTEM, the very ideals and principles upon which our government funded educational system was founded has an ANTI-GOD agenda. Just as one, as a Christian, would not choose to marry a God-hating spouse, we, as Christians should not CHOOSE to send our children to an increasingly more brazen God-hating institution to form their minds and worldviews. And as for learning American history, I nearly weep every time I learn the true history of our country as we go through our ‘home schooling’ journey. The history they teach in public schools (from pre-k all the way to graduate school and beyond) is a ‘revionist’ history. Our true history is constantly being ‘revised’ to remove our Christian heritage. The ONLY way you or your children will learn our true history is by studying it on your own. Sad, I know.

          I wonder if you might be willing to just be open to the Lord revealing His mind (through Scripture) on the matter of where a Christian child should be educated in this country, and by whom…and for that matter, if this subject does even matter to Him? (I, of course, believe that it matters HUGELY to Him.) I see, by your confession, that you are a praying woman, so I’ve no doubt that He will lead you to the truth found in His Word. Please know that there is no condemnation here, just a sister who sees a burning building and is compelled by love to point the way to safety. (forgive the woefully inadequate agalogy, I hope you’ll understand what I’m trying to say.)

          I’m blushing a bit at how late I’m posting this. Dealing with a bit of insomnia over here…praying the Lord ‘fixes’ it soon! 🙂

          Hugs and love ladies,
          Amy

          • Amy says:

            Showing how tired my brain must be…’agalogy’ should quite obviously be ‘analogy’. Please overlook my typos, misspellings, etc. 🙂

          • Amy says:

            lol…’revionist’history should be ‘revisionist’ history. I’m sure there’s more… *blushing* Am I the only one who reads over her comment more thoroughly AFTER she’s posted it than before? Oy!

  68. Amy says:

    Woah Nelly! So many comments…and I finally read through most of it.

    As to your original question, I thought the article was thought provoking, yes. But a bit nit picky, as many have stated. I view it as suitable ‘catalyst’ material in this ‘hot button’ issue….but certainly not a stand alone case against the public school system. Glad you posted it…definitely worth the read.

  69. Jennifer says:

    PSKS, just because we’re no longer given Biblical revelations doesn’t mean we’re not spoken to by God or visited by angels.

    • Public School kills souls says:

      “just because we’re no longer given Biblical revelations doesn’t mean we’re not spoken to by God or visited by angels.”

      I made no such statement. What are you getting at?

  70. Sylvia says:

    PSKS,

    (This is in reply to your post to my post about taxes. I could not find the reply button. Sorry.)

    While everyone has their own ideas of what constitutes right or wrong, this is why I do not trust everyone’s interpretation of the Bible

    Let us take these…

    Deuteronomy 22:5, “The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man.”

    What does wearing not pertaining to a man mean ? For most Americns it means skirts. Some wear sleevelss tops, some wear long tops. Most show legs. In my culture, we do not show legs. I am not used to wearing stockings. I come from a very hot country.
    In my native country we wear something like a long pants and a flowing top as I have almost my whole life. So I wear pants and a long top in America. To most Americans who believe that verse, only skirts are biblical and feminine. Am I being unfaithful to God because I do not wear skirts ? Should christians who come here change their way of dress ? What about all the people all over the world whose do not dress in skirts ? Are they being ungodly ? Am I making excuses for not wearing skirts ?

    Timothy 2: 9
    “In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; ”
    What does modest mean ? The Taliban’s version of ‘modest’ is cover head to toe with peep holes for eyes. But since this is not a scary country like that, most resasonable people will say do not show a lot of skin and definitely not your stomach. But I also come from a culture that has something called the sari which is a long cloth that we wrap around ourselves. And part of that dress is showing the stomach. There are different versions of this depending on the area of the country. but even non-christian orthodox families who would cover their heads while outside will have a sliver of stomach peeking out. Is my native country a nation of harlots ? Am I supposed to stop wearing a sari in America because for many people showing stomach is ‘unbiblical’ and ‘not modest’ ?

    And the hair and jewels thing. In my culture, going around with unbound hair is disrespectful. We wear a lot of jewelry. Should I change because I am in America ?

    I Corinthians 11: 3 – 16
    The head covering verses. People have translated from Greek and tried to find ‘what exactly God means’. Some women cover their head all the time, some during prayer, some not at all. What is the ‘right way’?
    I cover my head during worship because in my native country we do so. Should I condemn all American women who do not cover their heads during worship ?

    Genesis 2:24 “A man shall leave his father and mother and cleave unto his wife”
    What does this verse mean ? They form their own family. Does that mean their parents should not live with them. I come from a culture of a joint family where generations live under one roof. I grew up with grandparents. Was my culture being unfaithful to God ?

    These are some of the most common verses that made me doubt if I was being disobedient to God and afraid of my salvation. I almost lost my faith.

    I searched my heart for a long time and prayed for wisdom. My mother, father and the pastor of my church growing up who are the three people who nurtured my faith told me that the way I dress or cover my head or anything has nothing to do with salvation.

    What is christianity ? For me, it is this.
    1. Believe in God the father, son, Holy Ghost
    2. Believe that Jesus died for our sins.
    3. Believe in resurruction.
    4. Accept Jesus as our personal savior.
    5. Obviously try not to sin. It is this area that is still a grey area open to interpretation for me.

    Ultimately what is the truth ? How do I know the truth ? How do I make my choices ? What feels right to me. I take responsibility for myself and my choices. Because I will have to answer Him someday.

    • Public School kills souls says:

      I think there was no reply button because the nesting was getting so crowded there. This is easier anyway.

      I was asking about specific Scriptures about your take on getting the gov’t to take money for your private consumption when God specifically protected private property in 10 commandments, and specifically delegated different authority to different forms of gov’t.

      I asked you for specific Scriptures that say it’s ok to send your children to a Pagan indoctrination center (w/ other people’s money) in light of the multitude Scriptures that Kelly and I gave about God commanding *Parents* to teach their children all day long, and keep them from the companion of fools and wicked, corrupt people.

      I asked for a specific Scripture that says “faith comes from experience” (9/3 10:28 PM)

      Sylvia – “Ultimately what is the truth ? How do I know the truth ? How do I make my choices ? What feels right to me.”

      This is flat out contrary to the Bible. This is Mysticism. This is Humanism (relying on your senses over the Bible). It is idolatry to trust in your own understanding over Scripture.

      • Sylvia says:

        How do I know faith comes from experience ? Through my experience 😉 of meeting people who cannot read/write and who have never read the Bible at all. Who work in fields every single day or do manual labor and do not have a living wage. Sometimes they send their children to cities as domestic help and do not see them for months even up to a year. Since there is this little thing called they have to eat. How do I know this ? Because I come from a country that this happens. They are christians. Do you even consider them christians or horrible people who send their children away instead of keeping them 24/7 with them and training them up in the Lord. If I believe your version only people who train their children 24/7 are christians or only people who have the ability to read the bible are christians, most of the people in my native country will be tossed to hell. And these people believe in all the things what I said about what basic christianity is. They even show bare shoulders because they are so poor they cannot even afford a blouse. Are they heading to hell ? You have no idea what their faith is. They will tell you stories about how God provided for them even when they live in mud huts. That is the faith I am talking about. The faith like a little child which the Bible talks about. They cannot throw bible verses like we do at each other, but you have no idea what their faith is.
        It must be lovely to be born in a country where you have the privilege (and to me it is a privelege not a right) to home school. And have the finances or even the choice to sit at home to train up children. I know Kelley has made choices that are not easy, I do not know your life story. But you both have a choice. So do I. What about all these poor people in all the countries around the world ? Speak for yourself, do not drag Kelley in.
        PSKS, What gives you the right to make a blanket assumption for how every one should train up a child ? Because you are making that assumption. Or are you speaking only for Americans ? Or the world over ? Make up your mind.

        I do not know American history or constitution except in passing. I was not trained in it. I did not go to school for it. So I cannot talk intelligently about it. Pagan indoctrination with other people’s money ? You flatter yourself. Science, history, geography, math, English, lnaguage is pagan indoctrination ? I wish someone pays for ‘pagan indoctrination’ in my native country so all poor people can be educated, not college education, but basic read and write and count so they will not be cheated.

        Rants like yours are what makes disbelieve anything you say.

  71. Word Warrior says:

    Sylvia,

    I understand your frustrations about multiple interpretations of Scripture. I also understand your points (I think) about your country, the people and their child-like faith, and their lack of choices about educating their children.

    In PSKS’s defense, I think she is right, though it may be a stretch for you to understand all she speaks of precisely because of your background. It is obvious that you believe an education can be divorced from religion. You believe that education is neutral. But if you were to study deeper and understand the underpinnings of the American educational system, you would find a much stronger agenda than teaching children to read or write.

    And actually, there is NO neutral education. If “the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge”, then trying to impart knowledge separate from that fear of God is foolishness.

    She is right about the “legalized theft” of taxation for public school. Again, a little study reveals that.

    Your country’s people didn’t have the choices we have, and it’s difficult to compare our responsibility to theirs. As has already been mentioned, “to whom much is given, much is required”. We have not only been given explicit direction from Scripture, but the ability to read it and the ability to act up on it.

    I know your “bottom line” question, as it relates to this discussion is, “how do we know what God’s word says about teaching our children if everyone says it says something different”?

    Let me first say that we cannot use the experiences of others or even ourselves (I say this because you continue to say that because the people in your country don’t do such and such, then it can’t be wrong for you) as a guide for what is right or wrong before the Lord. We will answer to Him, as you have said. But we will not be able to say, “Well, Lord, they did that and I thought that made it OK”.

    The one thing that you have yet to answer in this very long thread is how we can ignore all the Scriptures that have been brought up here. As precious as your stories are, I would love to not hear those anymore, but rather challenge you to answer from Scripture the following questions:

    1. If we are given instruction from Scripture to teach our children God’s laws when we get up, when we walk along during the day, sit in our homes and lie down, does sending them to teachers for the best part of the day who are not allowed to even speak His name, to an institution who has rejected Christianity and all that points to God the Creator, best fulfill that command? Will we be held accountable since we DO have a choice?

    2. If we are commanded to “not walk in the counsel of the ungodly or stand in the way of sinners…” can we obey Scripture by sending our children into the counsel of the ungodly? (By definition, the education is either godly or ungodly. It cannot be neutral. “You are either for me or against me”.)

    3. If we are commanded to avoid the companionship of fools but instead to “walk with the wise”, can we subject our children to the daily companionship of fools, leaving little time to walk with the wise?

    4. If we are to follow Christ’s example of discipleship with our children, can we disciple them in the things of God when we aren’t with them for most of the day?

    5. If the school system doesn’t recognize God as Creator and author of life, BY DEFAULT they must recognize “man as God”. This is called secular humanism. It is another faith/religion. The Bible says that false religions are an abomination to Him. So do you think, with this knowledge, that when we give an answer, our “feelings” will trump the blatant command to avoid false teaching? Worse yet, subjecting our children to false teaching would be considered “causing one of these little ones to stumble”, and that is no small thing.

    These are hard words for those of us who believe in the public school systems. But taking a careful, systematic look at Scripture, comparing that to what we know about the fundamental agenda of the PS system, we do not have to rely on our feelings or guess at the interpretations of the Bible.

    Is it because we just don’t want to see it? I know you are sincere. My heart breaks for some of the things you’ve shared here. And it is because you are sincere and I believe you are really searching, that I continue to ask these questions and probe you to study the Scripture.

    I would love a point by point answer to these specific questions. They are either commands or they’re not. There’s little open to interpretation. The only possible thing left, which is where I feel most Christians stand, is to deny the truth of what’s at the core of the PS system.

    That I can’t convince you of. But I implore any parent reading to at least study and research. If I am found wrong, hallelujah. But if I’m not, there sure is a lot at risk.

    Sincerely….

    • Sylvia says:

      1. If we are given instruction from Scripture to teach our children God’s laws when we get up, when we walk along during the day, sit in our homes and lie down, does sending them to teachers for the best part of the day who are not allowed to even speak His name, to an institution who has rejected Christianity and all that points to God the Creator, best fulfill that command? Will we be held accountable since we DO have a choice?

      I believe by bringing up the my children the way my parents brought me up which is send me to christian school which was christian in name only except for Assembly and prayer. We had scripture class which no one except christians attended. Though there were non-christians going to a christian school did not affect them or me in any way. My church did, my parents did. I do not have a church family for my children. That scares me. That burdens me, not sending them to public school which I have no expectations of fully educating them or neither do I expect them to even teach them about God. Will my husband and I be held accountable ? Will I be held accountable for not wearing skirts ? Not covering my head ? I can go on and on. Home schooling is but one of many of the choices I make. We make them with prayer. That is all I can do.

      2. If we are commanded to “not walk in the counsel of the ungodly or stand in the way of sinners…” can we obey Scripture by sending our children into the counsel of the ungodly? (By definition, the education is either godly or ungodly. It cannot be neutral. “You are either for me or against me”.)
      What does ‘you are either for me or against me’ mean exactly. I take it to mean belief in Jesus and he died for us. That is it. ‘Not walk in the counsel of ungodly, stand in the way of sinners’ what does it mean and who does it include ? My whole life before I came to America I have interacted with, taught by, studied with, been friends with people from different religions. My family who live in my native country still does and so do I when I go back. I have friends in America like that. Who are good people. Who do not believe the Gospel. Does the verse mean that I should not mix with them. I somehow do not think so.

      3. If we are commanded to avoid the companionship of fools but instead to “walk with the wise”, can we subject our children to the daily companionship of fools, leaving little time to walk with the wise?
      I have met foolish people, christians who misinterpret the bible from all over the world. There are bad apples everywhere. I do not consider all christians wise and good public school teachers foolish. That would make my teachers foolish . Absolutely not my experience.

      4. If we are to follow Christ’s example of discipleship with our children, can we disciple them in the things of God when we aren’t with them for most of the day?
      Absolutely. My parents did this. My native country does this. People the world over who do not have a choice to home school do this. My brother does this in my native country. So do I in America. I did not have a purity ball or a promise ring. My parents sent me here unmarried for a post graduate degree I could have dated, no one would habve found out. The thing that stopped me, being faithful to my parents and breaking their trust. I am but one of many from my culture who do that. So many children who are born here do not date, have arranged marriages. It is possible to do that.

      5. If the school system doesn’t recognize God as Creator and author of life, BY DEFAULT they must recognize “man as God”. This is called secular humanism. It is another faith/religion. The Bible says that false religions are an abomination to Him. So do you think, with this knowledge, that when we give an answer, our “feelings” will trump the blatant command to avoid false teaching? Worse yet, subjecting our children to false teaching would be considered “causing one of these little ones to stumble”, and that is no small thing.

      America is a christian country. Where there is only the God of Christianity. What about a country like my native country where even a christian school has to teach creationism of every major world religion and scientific theory to be ‘fair’. That is what I was exposed to. I have probably been exposed to a lot more things that I realize and do not have labels for. I never stumbled. Since I was taught knowledge is knowledge, faith is faith. That is what I will teach my children. There are children of different faiths in America who still go to Public school. And still learn their religions. I do not see an influx to christianity from them.

      I somehow do not think Public School is the root of all evil. Ultimately we look at the world through our experiences and make our choices based on our culture, family and experiences. No one can speak for God. People who say they do, interpret that in my experience. And I use discernment and pray. That is all I can do.

      I dismissed a lot of people who did not make my choices as too ‘radical’. But I have since learned to give grace though I may not seem that way sometimes. You and I on the surface may have nothing in common, but from you I have learned Charlotte Mason for instance. If I look at what your choices are and dismiss you as too ‘radical’, I would miss learning from you. I would have missed knowing a wonderful person like Diane from Tomato Soup Cake.

      Christianity has so many flavors. Worship, language and so on. What unites us IMO is the belief in the True Living God, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, the resurruction, that He died to save us. Everything else is based on interpretation which is based on experiences, culture, family etc. We all make our choices the best we can and hopefully with prater. Because no one can answer for us but ourselves when we stand before HIM.

  72. Word Warrior says:

    Sylvia,

    I wanted to offer you and your husband some things to read, chew and ponder on, if I may. Several articles that attempt to describe what is openly going on at the heart of the public education system in America. Being from a different country, you at least owe it to your children to know exactly what you’re looking at before you attempt to make decisions regarding their education. It’s a very dangerous thing to just look at America and assume it’s all rosy because it looks so much better than other countries. We have many privileges and we are fully aware of them, don’t get me wrong. But that doesn’t mean that many, many people here aren’t hostile to the things of God. And as Christians, regardless of what country we’re in, we must stand with Him and “fight the good fight of faith”.

    This quote from “American’s New Religion”

    “In 1930, Charles Francis Potter authored HUMANISM, A NEW RELIGION, in which he boasted: “Education is thus a most powerful ally of humanism and every American public school is a school of humanism. What can the theistic Sunday schools meeting for an hour once a week and teaching only a fraction of the children, do to stem the tide of a five-day program of humanistic teaching?”

    “Facts Do Not Speak for Themselves”

  73. Word Warrior says:

    I wish you the best, Sylvia. I think once people come to the realization that they read the Scripture differently, there is no point discussing any points further. Most of the answers you gave didn’t even address the questions. (For example, the “counsel” of the ungodly doesn’t have anything to do with “being around people who aren’t Christians; “counsel” implies teachers. So sending our children to learn from the “counsel” of an institution that denies God as creator is “walking in the counsel of the ungodly).

    But, I have nothing more to say at this point. Many blessings to you.

    • Sylvia says:

      Kelly,

      I know this has been thrashed around here. Final thoughts if I may..

      1. In my experience it is so unfair to paint all teachers with an ‘ungoldly’ brush. I’ve met so many wonderful teachers. As I understand public school teachers are forbidden by law to say the name of God it is not voluntary. I work outside the home, so does my husband, our workplace forbids us to talk about God or religion. Does that make me ‘ungodly’. Change the system, not the people who are making their living in it. I really cannot agree they are being ‘ungodly’ at all.
      2. I was quite disappointed that you agree wuith PSKS’s esxtreme view of taxes being theft and she had the audacity to wrap it up in bible verses which is for lack of a better word blasphemy to me. I come from a country where people actually steal taxes that are used to build roads and any public infrastructure and become rich. Politicians award contracts based on how much money they get as kick backs. I have not read of anything like that in America.

      I do not think home schooling is wrong at all. And I have seen how Diane has worked with her Millen and what she can do. Obviously home schooling works. What I have a problem with is saying it is the only way to raise Godly children and even worse people who do not believe in it are disobeying God. Which is so not true in my experience.

      Sorry if I created any conflict. It was entirely unintentional. Thank you. God Bless you.

      • Jennifer says:

        That’s a good point, Sylvia. The problem for me would be if all the teachers were, to my knowledge, teaching children unGodly doctrine, no matter what their own personal beliefs; as far as that goes, the Scriptures Kelly offered are not compromised or passed over by any means. Since I know that every school I had contained teachers who did speak of God, who encouraged open opinions (several kids spoke against abortion and gay marriage, even in the school paper) and never taught us to believe unGodly doctrines, I don’t have the fear or the belief that every school is corrupt.

  74. Krissa says:

    I’m very surprised you didn’t publish my comment, Kelly. It was absolutely sincere. I really do believe that PSKS is suffering from mania or bi polar disorder, and I wanted to voice my concern and hope she checks out her symptoms. I am very familiar with them, I promise you.

    I would be grateful if you found articles on public school and humanism that were not from a biased perspective. It’s an interesting viewpoint, but I do not find the articles you linked as journalistic in nature.

    • Beth says:

      Kelly, I also am dissapointed in the links you provided to Sylvia. The link titled “The Public School Religion” is a link to the website for the Ku Klux Klan!

      I have been reluctant to comment on this post about homeschool vs. public school, because I do not agree that homeschooling our children is a Biblical mandate, but I have found your reasons against public school interesting and thought provoking.

      If I had known that your support for the public school/ secular humanism link came from sources as biased as white supremacist groups I probably would have stopped reading a long time ago. Unless you have unbiased information about the link between public schools and secular humanism, I afraid I can’t really believe that. You would have been wise to stop with the Bible verses you provided as those have much more credibility. The fact that you would link to the Klan’s website also undermines your credibility in my eyes. This is very disapointing to me as I have enjoyed your blog and Biblical wisdom up until now.

      Also, the original article in the post is almost entirely made up of judgements based on the author’s personal experience in the public school system. How is it that you are willing to accept his experience as credible but not other people’s experiences who may have differed?

      I realize that by commenting so late in the game this may leave you feeling tired of the argument. And, I’m really not trying to argue about homeschooling vs. public schooling, just confused as to some inconsistencies I see in your use of sources other than the Bible.

      I don’t even know if my thoughts are making much sense but after seeing that link I couldn’t remain silent on this any longer. I would be grateful for any explanation your can provide for the credibility of your very biased sources.

      • Word Warrior says:

        Beth,

        YIKES! Thank you so much for pointing that out. I was rash, quickly posted the article ONLY because I saw that the author was confirming the point I was trying to make to Sylvia: that public school does, in fact, promote a religion. (I removed that link.)

        I should have checked more closely as that was poor journalism on my part. There are many, many more credible sources (as you asked Krissa) for those wanting to understand the religion of humanism that is propagated in the ps system.

        In fact, this was one of the reasons Dr. Dobson and many Baptist leaders recently called for an “exodus mandate” for all Christians to pull their children from the system.

        Again, sorry for the poor link.

        • Beth says:

          Kelly, Thank you! I am so relieved to know that the link was posted in error and was not done intentionally. I have to admit knowing that group supports the argument weakens it a little in my eyes as I’m inclined to run as far away from anything they believe as fast as possible. Thank you for mentioning Dr. Dobson. He is someone I have much respect for. As you mentioned in another post about feeling unheard, please know that I have appreciated reading the discussion on this subject. While I’m not sure I completely agree with you, you have given me much to think about. Thank you.

          • Word Warrior says:

            Beth,

            Thanks! One thing you said…”I have to admit knowing that group supports the argument weakens it a little…”

            Just be aware, as you sort through these things, that that is poor epistemology. There will always be subject areas that overlap in a Venn diagram across groups and schools of thought that may otherwise vehemently disagree. We should use the facts that are presented as facts, regardless of what group may endorse them. (I, for example, have a lot of beliefs that overlap with Glenn Beck’s, though he is a member of a cult.)

            Just wanted to point that out 😉

    • Jennifer says:

      Krissa, your comments may be sincere, but they’re also extreme and PSKS would probably find them very offensive. It’s a better thing to send someone in private.

  75. Krissa says:

    I would have been happy to send her my concerns in person, had a blog or email link been provided. I apologize if she finds this offensive but she is a sister and as so, I must speak out.

    • Public School kills souls says:

      Actually, I am not a bit offended by your comment, Krissa. In fact, I am as honored by your suggestion of mental illness as I am embarressed for you. You see, by suggesting that I have a mental illness, you have(perhaps unwittingly) classed me w/ a certain very brave lady whom I much admire, who was also glibly accused of mental illness after exploring biblical concepts.

      I am embarressed for you because you have revealed that when when you have no Scripture to back you, when your logic thins, then when name calling of “meanie” (aka “unloving”) then even “foolish” don’t quiet your opposition, you hit below the belt. Attack their sanity. That is a “poisoning the well fallacy” if I’ve ever seen one. See, it is more than a little telling that despite your sincere sisterly concern, you didn’t bother to go out on a limb to offer your contact info w/ a simple “I’m concerned, please contact me.” You also as far as is revealed, did not ask for my contact info w/ a similar message. No, despite your sincere sisterly concern, you couldn’t resist the opportunity to whisper to all the ladies here the equivalent of: “pssst, she’s mentally ill, don’t listen to her!” This is much like *that* lady at church who can’t bear to miss a prayer meeting for the sake of sharing her latest overheard gossip cloaked in the reqest to “Please pray for so-and-so because they (insert juicy gossip here).” Not a Scriptural behaviour, nor intellectual. Base, and cheap.

      So no, thank you for your concern however public; I am not offended.

  76. Word Warrior says:

    Sylvia,

    You said: “it is so unfair to paint all teachers with an ‘ungoldly’ brush.”

    I have never mentioned in this debate anything about the teachers. I full well know that many, many teachers are well-intentioned and Christians. (I have friends and family in the system.) Again, this is a major point of importance to understand and hard for us to separate: it is the SYSTEM that is laden with the agenda of propagating a false religion (which by the way, WILL leak into the teachers teaching either by force or by their own indoctrination). That’s why whether a school has been affected little or whether we are seeing the full blown effects of the NEA’s efforts to usher in secular humanism, it is happening in every school, and will eventually be more and more visible.

    The challenge for Christians is PRINCIPLE. If I look at a local school and see good teachers, prayer in the morning, etc….does that free me to continue sending my children to a place where, fundamentally, a false religion is still promoted, even if just by default?

    No, by principle, no matter how it looks, no matter how I feel, when I understand that the absence of Christianity is the presence of all that is left, (remember, that in the absence of light is only darkness) I must, by principle, according to Scripture, reject that as an acceptable place for my children to be mentored.

    I feel like a broken record, and still I feel like I’m not being heard. Sad, tired and burdened.

    • Sylvia says:

      Kelly,

      I seem to be adding more fuel to the fire. I think this will be my final post. I get your frustration and I want to assure you I hear you .

      These are the things we can agree on
      1. Home schooling is not bad and works. I only have to look at Diane’s Millen to see what can be done.
      2. The Public school system is deteriorating from what you obviously grew up with. Yoy are not the first one to say that, I’ve heard that a lot from other sources.

      But I also come from a culture where more things were broken, my parents were so involved with us. My mother was on her knees for hours. I know I tell a lot of stories which may irritate people, but I can only relate with my experiences. My husband was brought up all over the world (my father-in-law’s job took them around the world) went to different schools, was exposed to a lot of things. But my inlaws did such a good job with him. I’d like to think my parents did that with me and any faults I have are entirely my own.
      I have wonderful examples in front of me. My own family. I just have to follow them. You can ask then why even bother coming to a blog like yours.

      I piggy back a lot of material from blogs like yours
      1. Because I live in America and public school does not supplement everything and I do not know enough of American History for instance. I learn from them. Many homeschool blogs do that.
      2. Charlotte Mason as I mentioned. Never even heard of that.
      3. Home school moms recommend a lot of books.
      4. Crafts. I come from a math/science background. I cannot craft to save my life.

      You are being heard. But can I ultimately change my way of life and thinking ? No. And I want to make this clear, you never asked me to unlike so many people. You only suggested in your blog which I chose to come as you have every right to.
      Ultimately it is my husband and I who will have to make this choice and journey for our family. If we think for a minute being in America is detrimental in any way to our children, we would choose to move back home. Not home school.

      You can only plant the seeds Kelly as I did once upon a time when I was involved in ministry. You are not responsible for it to grow. If you feel burdened for me or any others, please let go. It is not yours to carry, it is HIS.

      But thank you. For what you do. Maybe you don’t see it. But I do. And it is much appreciated.

      • Word Warrior says:

        Thank you, Sylvia…you are right about the seeds 🙂 The “prophet personality” in me takes over sometimes and I have a proverbial “renting of garments” over the things I cannot change.

    • Jennifer says:

      If it makes you feel any better, Kelly, you have been heard; there’s no ignoring the Scriptures you presented and I didn’t know some of things about the system that I do now. You’ve put me on my guard more than I was before.

  77. SavedbyGrace says:

    I go away and come back —- Wow! What a mess.

    Hey Jennifer, thanks! It wasn’t bad. But it was enough to get me away from the sewing machine for a little while. Sometimes the old brain just deserts me. 🙂

    You know, I proctored for a Christian Homeschool end of the year test last spring. Even in that elementary test there were questions that were humanistic and environmentally slanted in such a way as to be unbiblical. Now when the Christian test, which is geared to be used nation wide, is obviously slanted in an unbiblical way what are we to say about it? I still ask, is it correct for Christian parents to take part? Seriously, when we ask this question we are determining our children’s future. Do we teach them to be able to answer the humanist “religion” questions the “correct” way so they perform better or do we teach them the correct answer. The Biblical answer.

    We gained abortion rights yet lost the power of prayer in our schools. We have separation of church and state yet our schools indoctrinate children into the religion of humanism. We lost the ability to teach children the Biblical account of creation in order to teach the theory of evolution. We offer up our life to education, we sacrifice our time and money to sports, money, ……. you name the societal illness. We are losing our children!

    ( Yes, Jennifer, I know. Let’s not drag up that evolution dicussion – I’m just making a point. Okay 🙂 oxox )

    Those of us who have been reared up in the United States of America and are older than the age of 30 can see the difference in the youth of today and those of decades past. It has steadily been getting worse. Yes, there are those within the system who are devout, God-fearing Christians BUT their hands are tied into teaching what the State tells them to teach. They have the ability to witness but to what real good? No, the word does not return to God void, BUT how many young people can hear it when they are surrounded by humanism 24 hours a day, 7 days a week because we all know it’s not just in school.

    Christians cannot rear up arrows for the Lord in a public school setting very easily. Just as any parent cannot rear up arrows for the Lord if all they ever teach their children about Scripture and Jesus Christ comes from 3 measly church services a week. It’s a good start, those 3 services, but salvation isn’t about 3 services it’s about a relationship with Jesus Christ. That relationship isn’t based upon what we think we know, just as sure as we think we know something we’ll be proven wrong. Anybody amen that???? That relationship is about studying the word of God and proving ourselves to be approved workmen through our obedience. Suffice it to say – it is our jobs Moms and Dads and Grandparents to train them up and if we get it wrong then God help us. If the only thing we have to hope in, is this current life, then we are indeed to be pitied above all men.

    We all must make our own choices and then stand ready to give account. Lord, please help us to make choices that glorify you!

    Blessings Ya’ll!

    • Jennifer says:

      Grace, just so you know, I agree with you 100% about evolution 🙂 I believe that animals evolve within their own species, NOT into new species!

      In our school, we were taught about the theory of Darwin, but not to buy it necessarily. And it was optional; parents were allowed to refuse it for their kids.

      • SavedbyGrace says:

        Why, Ms. Jennifer, I do believe I heard the Hallelujah! chourus this morning. 🙂

        Unfortunately, I don’t think students today have the option you had.

        Blessings today sister.

  78. Deanna Laney says:

    I generally dislike the idea of referring to a politically-based article, such as this one, and cloaking it as religion. I’m sure there are many non-religious based arguments for homeschooling. They need to be couched as such. Second, for those such as PSKS who boldly state that there is a scriptural mandate to homeschool, I disagree with that interpretation of scriptures. For those who rely on the Old Testament for the idea that the Bible dictates homeschooling, I would also note that the Old Testament contains approximately 613 mitzvot. I’m surprised you have time to fool around on the internet with all those laws to obey. Finally, I stick by my original post about the Holy Spirit and its impact or effect on other Christians’ lives.

    • Word Warrior says:

      Deanna,

      “I generally dislike the idea of referring to a politically-based article, such as this one, and cloaking it as religion.”

      Who did that? I said in the post that as far as I could tell, the author was not a Christian.

      “For those who rely on the Old Testament for the idea that the Bible dictates homeschooling”

      No one did that either. I would challenge you to study to understand how Christians are to handle the OT. Just because there are many laws and “mitzvots” that were done away with under the new covenant, doesn’t mean that we write the whole book off. The OT is still very much full of commands and direction for our lives. In fact, it’s virtually the only place Jesus ever quoted from when teaching.

  79. Sylvia says:

    *comes in slowly with trepidition*

    So I said my reply to Kelly will be the last on this topic but wanted to give my final, final, final thoughts 😉 on this if I may. Really not sure it will be final though..

    Had a couple of days to really think about why I want my children to go to public school. Discussed with my husband. Prayed about it. Had to take a trip down memory lane. Every family makes a decision for themselves. It is not a one size fit all. This post does not convey my heart so please forgive me if I sound proud or full of myself or judging others or their choices

    This is how we made our decision.

    The question that had to be answered.

    Can we raise Godly children who go to Public school or any type of school where they will be outside the home for hours on end like we were as children. Are we breaking God’s law ?

    Answer: Unanimously both of us agreed. We could and should as our parents did because we were always outside the home. Exposed to a lot of things. Which we did not have a choice of not being exposed. We could not be pulled out of school. Things like creationism. Yet, we both chose to have arranged marriages, not date when our parents were thousands of miles away.

    The scientific part of me should not believe in virgin Birth, the part which knows evolution should not believe God created the Earth. The thing that makes me believe is faith. I chose to believe knowing all that I know about Science.
    I guess that is what my husband and I want as parents. The world threw a lot of things at us when we were children. Our parents did not have a choice to shield us because of where we were born. But we were raised with there are things that cannot be explained and faith is faith. The people who do not believe that become atheists I suppose. The people who do are like us I suppose. I want my child to choose to be a christian. Like I did. Like my husband did.

    Ultimately I can only be vigilant and I am glad I live in a country where I choose to pull out my child from being exposed to something I do not want them to be. But I cannot protect them all the time. Someday they will grow up. They will leave us. I grew up with granparents living with my parents and my brother and I. Did not expect to leave my city, let alone my state or country of birth. My husband grew up all over the world. He did not think or expect he would live outside my native country. But here we are today. Who knows which part of the world God will take our children like He did my husband and I ? So we will be vigilant and protect but give them all the tools so that when they stumbled like I did in America of all places, they will still hold on to God and not let go. I can only plant the seeds, but the prayer is the Almighty gardener will make them grow.

    • Word Warrior says:

      Sylvia,

      You are still basing your decision on experience instead of commands of God. You are still not answering the question, “But what about what Scriptures say?” You still aren’t explaining how allowing your children to be “counseled by the ungodly” (the system that rejects God, not the individual teacher) is NOT breaking the command to “not walk in the counsel of the ungodly”.

      You are still not explaining how “the way you and your husband turned out” will suffice in the day you give an account, when experience is never to be our rule of guidance where guidance is already given.

      You are still not explaining how an education devoid of the fear of God can be an education at all when Scripture says the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.

      You are still not explaining how secular humanism, the proclaimed religion of the state, is not a false religion, which God calls an abomination. Placing our children under the instruction of a false religion defies everything God’s Word says if that were the only argument we had.

      How can your experience trump the explicit words of God when you are given a choice to bring your children up in the admonition of the Lord or subject them to be indoctrinated under false teaching?

      How can you bring up children who daily “walk with the wise” if their main companions are “fools”?

      Syliva, I’m not “picking” on you, to be sure. I wouldn’t be having this conversation if I didn’t deeply care. Your reasoning mirrors that of many, many Christian parents and so this debate stands as a kind of Q & A for the other readers who have the same questions/arguments. It’s good debate. It’s needful debate.

      • Sylvia says:

        Kelly,

        I’ll try not to ramble as usual and give my answers 😉

        I guess we differ from what it means the scriptures say and what exactly certain scriptures mean. That is where I say interpretation.

        For instance, the bible gives us rules on how to treat slaves. Does that mean slavery is legal today ? Most of us regardless of ethnicity, country etc will rise up against that.

        1. Likewise, is public school ‘a system that rejects God’ ? It is my understanding the ten commandments cannot be posted, the name of God cannot be said and so on and please remember I do not know much about it. But the same thing can be said of a workplace. You cannot talk about God, you cannot evangelize, you cannot pray etc. But people do have to earn their living in working with these secular institutions. Is the solution self employment for all of us ? We do need shops. What about the president of a country, the armed forces, the government sectors, the supreme court, the police, the fire department. Unless I am mistaken the same rules or similar apply in the work place and in school. Will you call these systems ‘ungodly’ too. I cannot agree with that.

        2. ‘Not walk in the counsel of the ungodly’ ? What does that exactly mean ? Does that mean not mixing with other religions because they obviously do not believe what I believe in. Does that mean public school teachers. I was exposed to a lot of things, my faith did not stumble.

        3. ‘You are still not explaining how an education devoid of the fear of God can be an education at all when Scripture says the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.’
        We both agree ‘the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom’ and ‘parents should be the biggest influence’. I think we disagree on the how.
        My education in a christian private school was devoid od God. Public school education is not the only thing my children will have like me. Even going to a christian school will not still teach you scripture because if it is anything like what it was for me, it would be 45 minuts of scripture class once in two weeks, assembly and prayer daily. Did nothing for my faith.
        Growing up this way did. Every single day at home, read the word of God individually with the children’s bible, stories when we were young and then the adult bible and devotionals. Family prayer every single day however late or tired we were. Have discussions with parents. Memorizations. Church. I cannot emphasize the value of a good church and Sunday school. This is how I was taught. My husband lived in countries where they lived far away from church. Yet my inlaws and parents some how managed to instill the fear of God in us. Prayer. Reading the word of God. Family Prayer. That is the thing that sustains my children today. Even when we do not have to church family. My children read the bible every day, memorize every day, we pray every single day as a family, not only on Sundays. They have bible home work just like I look at their daily lessons. They are little but still we do work with them, at home, every day even if the school does not give them home work. Have always done it. That is how we will inculcate the word of God and fear of God.

        As for your question on secular humanism, here are some things about that I found and how I as a christian with my scientific background answer it.

        Secular Humanism definition and my responses.

        1. A conviction that dogmas, ideologies and traditions, whether religious, political or social, must be weighed and tested by each individual and not simply accepted on faith.

        Some things I weigh, some I just accept on faith. So many terrible things have been done ‘in the name of God’. In my native country caste system in the name of Genesis 24, in some parts of Africa FGM in the name of ‘modesty’. But can I reject God. No. why ? Science requires an amount of faith. Unless I am mistaken has anyone actually seen the inside of an atom ? But yet we draw it’s structure, we draw molecular structures of chemical reactions, complex ones. Even the big bang theory in it’s simplest form assumes before the ‘big event’ something existed. Logic says something must exist because nothing means vaccuum. I believe my God created the universe. But even in the big bang theory someone must have created that ‘something’ that exploded ?

        2. Commitment to the use of critical reason, factual evidence, and scientific methods of inquiry, rather than faith and mysticism, in seeking solutions to human problems and answers to important human questions.
        If you eliminate faith we lose our humanity. Science and faith are not mutually exclusive. I believe in faith, I also have questions about many things in science which I have taken on faith.

        3. A primary concern with fulfillment, growth, and creativity for both the individual and humankind in general.
        I agree, but most religions in their best form do that. It is arrogant to assume that only human secularism does that. Terrible things are done in the name of God. Does that make God bad ? By that argument things are done in my name as a citizen that I do not agree with. Does it make me bad ?

        4. A constant search for objective truth, with the understanding that new knowledge and experience constantly alter our imperfect perception of it.
        Some truths cannot be objective. I just believe them. My religion says a virgin gave birth. Flies in the face of all that I know objectively and rationally. But I still believe because God is beyond a test tube. And a good secular humanist will respect my choice to believe.

        5. A concern for this life and a commitment to making it meaningful through better understanding of ourselves, our history, our intellectual and artistic achievements, and the outlooks of those who differ from us.
        I agree on some parts of this. I come from a diverse country where many of the world religions were born. I know about them, respect them. But I also believe salvation is only through Christ.

        6. A search for viable individual, social and political principles of ethical conduct, judging them on their ability to enhance human well-being and individual responsibility.
        We are constantly evolving as human beings. Things that were accepted as ‘good’ a while back no longer exist. But does that mean religion should be excluded. No !!

        7. A conviction that with reason, an open marketplace of ideas, good will, and tolerance, progress can be made in building a better world for ourselves and our children.
        I agree with parts of this, but is this the only way, NO. But it must also come with a freedom to practice my religion and what I believe in.

  80. Sylvia says:

    ADDENDUM

    1. How can your experience trump the explicit words of God when you are given a choice to bring your children up in the admonition of the Lord or subject them to be indoctrinated under false teaching?

    I do not believe in many interpretations that home schooling is the only way. It is a good way yes, does it work, yes. But I choose to public school for all the benefits it gives them. On the religious part, because I cannot protect them. The world will always throw things at them. They need to be taught to choose even if they stumble. I will do that and I will pray they choose. That is all I can do.

    2. How can you bring up children who daily “walk with the wise” if their main companions are “fools”?
    Who are the ‘wise’ and ‘fools’ ? That is why they need discernment because both the secular world and unfortunately the religious world will throw things at them

    • Sylvia says:

      And LOL no Kelley, you are not ‘picking’ on me. I just happen to have a loud mouth and if I post something on your site which does not disagree with your view, I would only expect you to challenge and debate me, No one forced me to me here 😉

      • Sylvia says:

        *Sigh*…I fat fingered myself..

        This response should be..
        And LOL no Kelley, you are not ‘picking’ on me. I just happen to have a loud mouth and if I post something on your site which does not agree with your view, I would only expect you to challenge and debate me, No one forced me here 😉

        Please delete the duplicate fat fingered response.

  81. Anti-School says:

    Schools are failing because they are worthless, embrace it and move on.

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